A Canadian, who is of English origin, told me that British people cannot get away from the lower class no matter how much they try to do so, so they move to Canada from England.

>Japanese people are far less conscious of class

Because it is discrimination in contemporary Japanese culture. I remember that a university student was shocked by an English word “lower class” during English class and was absent from classes. The professor claimed that “lower class” is commonly used in English but after all he was given a suspension from office as punishment. This event showed up in a major Japanese paper in 2000 or 2001. Japan has very small numbers of privileged people such as the emperor family and their relatives, descendants of Shogun’s family and descendants of the feudal lard family from the Edo period, but in daily life we hear of only the emperor family and a few of their relatives through the media. We have discriminated people called “buraku-min” who are descendants of the lowest class of the social position system from the Edo period. Japanese compulsory education teaches their history to abolish discrimination.

I think that as for class society these facts are more important differences between Britain and Japan rather than differences between British ideas of “separate them from others” and Japanese ideas of “homogeneity.”

>People in Europe were still dangling in trees when Greeks and Chinese were already perfecting philosophies.

I have seen many women who had suffered by what Confucianism says. Is this major Chinese philosophy perfect?

I’m mixed, bi racial… I live in the united states.. and even here I’m considered black. I’m no more black, than I am white, but because I have pigment, no one seems to acknowledge my white heritage what so ever.

And what exactly is pure and not pure? It’s hard to really be so closed minded when American’s are a melting pot of many races… someone appear white externally, but actually have some black in them… or spanish, dutch, german etc.

Which sort of cascades me to another MAJOR important point(s) about the Japanese and their ridiculous close minded racism…

What about their anime? (animated cartoons/mangas/stories)

They don’t always depict their own “kind” in a very obvious way. Many of their characters have blue, brown, green, and blonde hair traits.. eyes varying in color, (and even some with bi colored eyes)
See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterochromia
and also an anime http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rozen_Maiden and not just fanart depicting this seemigly rare trait.
Particularly Souseiseki
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/5526/rozenmaideimg007ya9.jpg

personalities of all sorts, body types quite exaggerated, as well as the eyes. These traits are so far from the Japanese and their ideals, it’s confusing to outside cultures what message they’re trying to send. And I don’t bring up Anime as an unfair point. They are very much enriched with Anime in their own country. It isn’t as if just a select few watch it and are absorbed by its popularity. They have genres, stretching from anime for the very young children, to adults. They commonly read Manga, so much in fact that they have what us westerners have coined “manga phonebooks”. Multiple paged comic stories, of all storylines, that can be up to 400 pages. Some have prizes, stickers… much like our cereal boxes have toys and prizes as an example.

It’s even been a mystery as to where exactly Anime has originated from. Some extremists have wondered if they’ve borrowed our own western cartoons and played with ideas.

The numbers don’t seem to be that high. 50,000 visas per year through the lottery compared to about 1,000,000 new immigrants per year in total (and that’s before we even consider how many people leave the U.S. per year).

Since the proportion is so low and the lottery targets people from countries with low rates of immigration to the U.S., I’d guess the main purpose is to create goodwill towards America in countries that don’t already have strong ties with it, and to pay lip service to that little poem engraved inside the Statue of Liberty.

America certainly has problems with the gap between rich and poor (as Britain, where I was born, and Japan currently do), but if businesses in America exploit immigrants from poor countries, the blame surely lies with business, not immigrants. Perhaps there should be stricter employment regulations and a better minimum wage to ensure that immigrants aren’t being used to undercut local workers, I don’t know. However, I find the idea that crime organisations are somehow infiltrating the Department of State and rigging the lottery to bring in dangerous criminals ludicrous. Crime families like the Mafia have all kinds of other ways of sneaking people into the country without doing something so complex as messing around with a federal government scheme like this.

Also, I think once someone starts making comments like “getting more immigrants to degrade their country even further” their rhetoric is moving into a very dangerous area. I’m an expatriate living far away from the place I was born and I would hope I don’t “degrade” the country in which I now live. The Green Card Lottery at least requires that its applicants have a high school diploma or a couple of years of work-based training, which is more than millions of native born Americans/British/Japanese etc. have. Who’s “degrading” what in this case?

My friend wrote me as follows.

“In my opinion, the Green Card Lottery (G.C.L.) is a scam that the rich people in America wants. This is because by allowing foreign poor country folks to go live in America, America is allowing low-wage employment opportunities for these uneducated workers. This means that big companies such as Burger King, or McDonald, or Wallmart could hire these people and pay them a very low wage and they wouldn’t complain. This is extremely bad for the American economy right now and it’s one of the reason why the American economy is collapsing. By having these lower income workers, the average American could not easily find a starting job to earn some tuition thus causing a problem in the quality of American industries. The rich people would have their children go to expensive private schools while the poor people would stay poor and learn from (some) badly taught public schools which, will cause a more visible hierarchy of income. In short, rich people can pay to rig these lotteries because they have the money to pay someone in the government to do it, and also it is dangerous as well. It is dangerous in the sense that some crime organization could use this as a way to import their friends/relatives from another country to America thus increasing crime rate as well. All in all, it is a bad idea as I see it. America really needs to fix what is happening NOW with their country instead of getting more immigrants to degrade their country even further.”

I do not know what the truth is. I would like to research Green Card Lottery.

Its wonderful here and the people have been extremely nice. I did make an effort to learn some key words especially “thank you.” I have also tried to abide by their rules and customs as well. I understand that I am a visitor here and I came with the intention of experiencing their culture with an open mind.

As far as staring, they really have not done much. They tend not to make eye contact. It doesn’t bother me either way, again everyone has been extremely helpful and will approach me to provide assistance if I look lost.

Just do your homework on the culture before coming here and remain humble.

I’ve lived in Japan for a little under eight years now and there are obviously differences between Japan and Britain (as well as innumerably similarities). Japan has a smaller gap between rich and poor than the U.K. (although the U.K. has a smaller gap than the United States), and Japanese people are far less conscious of class. In fact, in my experience many Japanese don’t like the concept even being discussed in relation to Japanese society. If I was pushed to make a generalisation, I’d say that Japanese people are often very proud of the cultural traits that unite them as a people, with Japan’s “homogeneity” often considered a point of pride. British people are often very proud of the traits that separate them from others, with class often a strong point of identification. In practice, I think Japan is far less homogeneous than its image and Britain is probably far less culturally stratified than its people think. To summarise, the difference is far more about how people see themselves, which is an important factor in a society, but you’d need to go into more easily measurable factors, particularly economics, if you want to make any kind of useful comparison between class mobility in any two given countries.

>Dudesworthy
“…like Japan, where rigid government control has apparently stamped out all regional accents.”

There are radical differences in accent between different parts of Japan. Someone with a strong Aomori dialect would be almost unintelligible to someone from Kagoshima. Okinawa retains both its own distinct dialect of Japanese as well as its own language and culture from before the Ryukyu Islands were formally annexed in 1879. The Ainu people, mostly living in Hokkaido, similarly retain a cultural identity and language distinct from mainstream Japanese society.

“…you can’t even become a citizen unless you have Japanese ancestry.”

You can become a citizen after living in Japan for a certain number of years (not sure exactly how many). It’s very similar to the U.K.’s policy on naturalisation.

>> Japanese have also been discriminated against in the U.S. during the WWII eras

Japanese have discriminated against Chinese and Koreans in Japan too. Chinese discriminate against ethnic minorities within China. Koreans discriminate against foreign workers in Korea. You can find racial discrimination in many other countries too. Not only white people but also non-white people discriminate against other ethnic groups. Does your ethnic group/country have no discrimination against foreigners? I think that it is more important to focus on better aspects of other cultures and learn from them rather than to focus on others’ faults.

>> Japanese, no matter how first-world they are, are still considered to be non-European
Many Japanese people respect European culture because European culture and its values are different from Japanese culture and values.

>> Please stop with the self-denial

Japanese people stay very Japanese no matter how much Japanese life style is westernized. Japan has imported a lot of western culture but has customized it to suit to Japanese people. I think that Japanese transition is development, not “self-denial”.

>> Please stop degrading other ethnicities just to make yourself look better in the Westerners’ eyes

Japan keeps learning from other cultures to develop and improve the quality of life for Japanese.

The Guardian’s article “Riven by class and no social mobility – Britain in 2007” above is wrong?

“In my eyes it is as if China stopped thinking after ancient times while France continued thinking and advanced the concept of human rights as well as greatly contributed to modern democracy.”

Do you always speak like this? Pardon me but if your mindset is like this then there is really no point discussing at all. If your concept of China is simply a geographic construction then yours is myopic at the very least. No offense.

>> Kanji has Chinese roots.

*** Japan imported Chinese characters from China in ancient times while China imported made-in-Japan Chinese characters from Japan in modern times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Japanese_compound

“While much Sino-Japanese vocabulary was borrowed from Chinese, a considerable amount was created by the Japanese themselves as they coined new words using Sino-Japanese forms. These are known as wasei kango (和製漢語 ‘Japanese-created kango’).
The best-known example is the prolific numbers of kango coined during the Meiji era on the model of Classical Chinese to translate modern concepts imported from the West. These words include 科学 kagaku (’science’), 社会 shakai (’society’), 自動車 jidōsha (‘automobile’), 電話 denwa (‘telephone’) and a host of other basic words. The use of Chinese elements to form words in Japanese is akin to the way that English words are formed using Greek and Latin elements, such as the English word “telephone”, which was created from the Greek morphemes tele (‘far’) and phone (’sound’). The Japanese formation 電話 denwa means ‘electric’ + ‘talk’.

Much of this vocabulary was borrowed back into Chinese around the turn of the 20th century and is now used indistinguishably from native Chinese vocabulary.”

>> People in Europe were still dangling in trees when Greeks and Chinese were already perfecting philosophies.

*** Yes, Chinese philosophies developed well in ancient times but after that it seems that no great philosophy is found in China. In my eyes it is as if China stopped thinking after ancient times while France continued thinking and advanced the concept of human rights as well as greatly contributed to modern democracy. By the way, I believe that Greek philosophies are the basis of European culture and Greece belongs to Europe.

>> Do you call a society high culture simply because people are wearing suits (and yet their children go on a shooting rampage)? Is a culture advanced simply because society has attained a certain level of opulence (yet salarymen throwing themselves against a speeding train is a normal occurence)?

*** I have already written why I think that some cultures are superior. It has nothing to do with wearing suits.

“Is a culture, which discriminates against its disadvantaged people — such as women, disabled people and poor people — and only their family has to bear all the burdens to take care such family members equal to a culture, which has developed a welfare system to support disadvantaged people and its society treats them with respect?”

It is true that some people throw themselves in front of a speeding train in Japan, but they are not killed or injured against their will in the name of tradition, which is seen in the Middle East, India and Africa.

I think that some cultures are superior but it does not mean that those are perfect. Superior cultures also have a long way to go to make all members happy.

In history, we were thought to make a distinction between civilization and culture. Civilization naturally would be distinguished by certain degrees or level of advancement and naturally some civilizations are far more superior than others. I do not think the same is true for cultures. I think cultures should be recognized simply as different or varied, period. There is no need to imply grade or superiority.

I mean, do you honestly think that Japanese culture is superior from others? If you go back to your history, yours is also an amalgamation of borrowed tradition. Kanji has Chinese roots. Most of Japan’s military technology were taught by Western engineers and artisans enticed to serve the Meiji during Japan’s industrial revolution.

Even so, it does not mean that Western is superior. People in Europe were still dangling in trees when Greeks and Chinese were already perfecting philosophies.

Besides, what is the basis for calling a culture superior or advance? Who decides a criteria? Do you call a society high culture simply because people are wearing suits (and yet their children go on a shooting rampage)? Is a culture advanced simply because society has attained a certain level of opulence (yet salarymen throwing themselves against a speeding train is a normal occurence)?

#I say this as a member of the lower class who has funny accent; I’ve been to university, I have a good job and I have never felt discriminated against because of my accent or my background.

*Depending on personal experience can be misleading as it is often a very subjective interpretation. By the way, you wrote that you have been to university and have a good job despite of your background, but that certainly doesn’t reflect in your writing, as you have resorted to insults such as calling my writing “ignorant”, “rubbish”, and stating that I was “embarrassing myself.” Perhaps this is a true reflection of the British class system…

# Don’t try and wriggle out of this; if you want to talk about England, then type England, if you want to talk about the UK, then type the UK. You cannot use these names interchangeably under any circumstances, ever.
#We all live in harmony together in the UK, actually. The last battle in Britain was in 1745.

*Differences among the England, Scotland and Wales are a local issue to many people outside the U.K. I think that the fact that you are so concerned about differences of England and the U.K. shows that the U.K. is mentally fractured into England, Scotland and Wales. In General Americans and French say “I am an American.” or “I am a French.” no matter which part of the country they are from.

#There are clear differences in accent between Canadians in the Atlantic Provinces, Quebec, Central and Pacific.

*I have talked to Canadians from all those areas and their English is not as different as people from London – One speaks very clearly like BBC and another speaks an English of which I can understand almost nothing. Actually I am not talking about “dialect” but different accents in such a small area as London or Tokyo. I understand that “dialect” is a part of a regional culture as I live in Tokyo but I am originally from Osaka where people speak Japanese with a very different accent from Tokyo. However in the same city in Japan, people speak with the same accent because most of children go to a public elementary school.

#you stated that Britain is a “land of Anglo-Saxon people” this is rubbish. We have significant minorities from outside of Britain

*British Whites in England represent the majority of the population while the percentage of ethnic minorities is quite small. And Anglo-Saxons came to Britain long ago. So, I think that it is safe to say, “Britain is a land of Anglo-Saxons.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_Kingdom
http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/anglosaxons/invasion/invind3.shtml

#Japan, where rigid government control has apparently stamped out all regional accents.

*Japan has many dialects. How much do you know outside the U.K.? My major is neither western culture nor language but I know that education has been free in Germany, and that Scandinavian countries have excellent welfare systems and that the French have social democracy, where some markets are controlled by the government. Japan has referred to many things in the west to develop our society, such as the welfare system, political system, and education. As a result many Japanese are well versed about the west.

#France is more egalitarian than Britain?!
#And Germany is well known for anti-semitic and neo-nazi movements in the East.

*I am talking about how the society treats their own people such as welfare system, free education, republic, etc. I am not talking about racism in France and Germany. I am referring to the British class system in this blog post.

I do not understand why the U.K., being as developed as France and Germany, discriminates against their own people through its class system. I do not like that because I believe in freedom and equality. These ideas are not from traditional Japanese culture but from the American influence after WWII in Japan. I suppose that the American ideas of “freedom and equality” derive from France during the time of American Independence and the French Revolution.

Read the Guardian while I am writing you. You said, “Very little of the class distinctions remain in Britain.” The Guardian said as follows.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/oct/20/britishidentity.socialexclusion

Riven by class and no social mobility – Britain in 2007

· No change in 10 years of Labour rule
· 89% say they are judged by class
· Poll shows deep North-South gap

* Julian Glover
* The Guardian, Saturday 20 October 2007
* Article history

Ten years of Labour rule have failed to create a classless society, according to a Guardian/ICM poll published today. It shows that Britain remains a nation dominated by class division, with a huge majority certain that their social standing determines the way they are judged.

Of those questioned, 89% said they think people are still judged by their class – with almost half saying that it still counts for “a lot”. Only 8% think that class does not matter at all in shaping the way people are seen.

The poorest people in society are most aware of its impact, with 55% of them saying class, not ability, greatly affects the way they are seen.

Gordon Brown claimed at this year’s Labour conference that “a class-free society is not a slogan but in Britain can become a reality”. But even the supposedly meritocratic Thatcher generation of adults born in the 1980s appear to doubt that: 90% of 18-24 year-olds say people are judged by their class.

The poll also shows that after 10 years of Labour government, social change in Britain is almost static. Despite the collapse of industrial employment, the working class is an unchanging majority. In 1998, when ICM last asked, 55% of people considered themselves working class. Now the figure stands at 53%.

Of people born to working class parents, 77% say they are working class too. Only one fifth say they have become middle class.

Despite huge economic change and the government’s efforts to build what it calls an opportunity society, people who think of themselves as middle class are still in a minority. In 1998, 41% of people thought of themselves as middle class, exactly the same proportion as today. The upper class is almost extinct, with only 2% of those who answered claiming to be part of it.

The poll paints a picture of a nation divided by social attitudes and life-chances, with 47% of those living in south-east England considering themselves middle class, against 39% in the north and 35% in Wales and the west.

Northern England remains a working-class heartland, with 57% of people describing themselves as part of it.

Scots – 47% of whom think they are middle class – are just as class-bound as English citizens. Almost half of Scots say that class plays an important part in the way people are judged by others.

Social change is taking place slowly. The middle class has grown: although 41% of people think they are part of it, only 32% say their parents were. In 1998, 69% of people thought their parents were working class. Now only 63% say so, and of those only 53% say they are working class themselves. That shift mirrors the attitude of the former deputy prime minister John Prescott, who admitted “I’m pretty middle class” despite his working class origins.

But many class attitudes have survived economic change. That suggests people are still judged by where they come from rather than how much they earn.

· ICM Research interviewed a random sample of 1,011 on October 17-18. Interviews were conducted across the country and the results have been weighted to the profile of all adults. ICM is a member of the British Polling Council and abides by its rules.

I’m going to be very blunt about this in the hope that you will understand:

You are wrong

You’re judging an entire country on the basis of an outdated film and second hand opinions. This is obviously a ridiculous thing to do.

I will now tackle some of the points you made in your reply to me:

# First of all, my point is not the “same” but “equal”.

* You’re hiding behind semantics here. You were complaining that people in Britain don’t all speak with the same accent, and that we should all be exactly like Japan, where rigid government control has apparently stamped out all regional accents.

# Second, I am not talking merely about differences between Scotland, Wales and England

* I never said that you were; I said that because you don’t understand the basic geography of Britain you can’t possibly have an informed opinion about its social structure.

# but I am referring to larger topics such as the British class system. I wrote “the U.K.” because “England” is a part of “the U.K.” and I believe that the national name of “England” is “the U.K.”

* Don’t try and wriggle out of this; if you want to talk about England, then type England, if you want to talk about the UK, then type the UK. You cannot use these names interchangeably under any circumstances, ever. Its not hard and if you still don’t understand then I suggest you get a map.

# By the way, do you know that English, Scottish and Irish all live together in the U.S. in harmony?

* We all live in harmony together in the UK, actually. The last battle in Britain was in 1745. Not exactly recent is it?

# Third, in Canada most people speak with the same accent no matter where in Canada they are from because the Canadian government controls standards of education.

* No they don’t. There are clear differences in accent between Canadians in the Atlantic Provinces, Quebec, Central and Pacific.

And what is your hang-up with everyone having to speak with the same accent? In the West we are allowed to be individuals. We don’t all have to speak and think in the same way.

And what’s all this about the Canadian government controlling standards of education?
Do you think that the British government doesn’t?
We just don’t feel the need to brainwash our children into speaking the same way like you do in Japan.

# My fourth point is that a Canadian told me that because the U.K. keeps the class system, it is not easy for people in the lower classes to move to the upper classes. Even today, British people are still immigrating to Canada where everyone are equal. Do you know this?

1) The word is emigrating not immigrating.

2) Stop asking me “Do you know this” it sounds patronizing; we’re talking about my country here, so don’t you think that I might just, possibly, perhaps, know slightly more about it than you do? Maybe?

3) We are all equal in Britain. Certainly far more so than in Japan where you can’t even become a citizen unless you have Japanese ancestry.

4) There has been a great deal of legislation passed over the past 20 years to break down the class system. Many of our leading politicians (and indeed our current Prime minister) come from lower class backgrounds.

5) Yet again you’re basing you’re judgments upon things other people have told you rather than your own experience.

6) British people emigrate everywhere. The majority of British emigrants went to Spain last year; it doesn’t mean a thing.

# Fifth, I know that India has Caste class system but I think that it is not fair to compare British society with India’s because India’s geographical and economical conditions are different from the U.K.’s and India has many social problems.

* Your previous posts seemed to indicate that you thought class systems were a uniquely British phenomenon, I was trying to show you that they occur throughout the world in many different cultures. Very little of the class distinctions remain in Britain. I say this as a member of the lower class who has funny accent; I’ve been to university, I have a good job and I have never felt discriminated against because of my accent or my background.

# Don’t you think that you should compare British society with other European societies such as France and Germany, which have much more egalitarian societies than the U.K.?

* France is more egalitarian than Britain?! If that’s the case then why were all the French Muslims rioting and burning cars in Paris last year? Why did the French ban them from wearing head scarves in schools?

And Germany is well known for anti-semitic and neo-nazi movements in the East. Half the country was a communist state less than 25 years ago.

Obviously these are extreme examples, but Britain is no less egalitarian than any other European country. Your belief that British people live under some sort of repressive tyranny is just more of your uniformed prejudice.

What exactly is your problem with my country?

I will re-read your comments and think about this topic again.

Many Thanks.

First of all, my point is not the “same” but “equal”.

Second, I am not talking merely about differences between Scotland, Wales and England but I am referring to larger topics such as the British class system. I wrote “the U.K.” because “England” is a part of “the U.K.” and I believe that the national name of “England” is “the U.K.” By the way, do you know that English, Scottish and Irish all live together in the U.S. in harmony?

Third, in Canada most people speak with the same accent no matter where in Canada they are from because the Canadian government controls standards of education. Do you think that Canadians do not celebrate individual differences?

My fourth point is that a Canadian told me that because the U.K. keeps the class system, it is not easy for people in the lower classes to move to the upper classes. Even today, British people are still immigrating to Canada where everyone are equal. Do you know this?

Fifth, I know that India has Caste class system but I think that it is not fair to compare British society with India’s because India’s geographical and economical conditions are different from the U.K.’s and India has many social problems. Don’t you think that you should compare British society with other European societies such as France and Germany, which have much more egalitarian societies than the U.K.?