My image of British and Australians
About 15 years ago when I watched “My fair Lady,” I thought that the U.K. was an awful country where people from different classes speak different kinds of English even if they live in the same city. Japanese people living in the same city speak the same Japanese no matter how poor they are.
About a month ago I got very angry when I read an email from my European friend because he looked down on U.S. people while he paid respect to his friend in Australia. (I thought that his friend is Australian but he is not.)
I have met some Australians who look down on U.S. people. I know that many Australians secretly discriminate against black people in their minds even now. I suppose that this comes from the Australia White Policy, which ended not so long ago. How can they look down on U.S. people without feeling shame for their own past and current discrimination?
I wrote this to my European friend and he responded, “Japanese people look down on Chinese and Korean people too. Everyone looks down on someone.” Yes, even now Japanese people tend to look down on Koreans and Chinese because Japan won the war against China and colonized Korea. After all, those who criticize discrimination in another country also look down on some other people.
Now my feelings toward the British class system has changed a little. The U.K. is an island country, which did not have a lot of chances to have many foreigners in the past, and they found another way to discriminate– discriminate against their own people based on class, I think. Japan also had a social class system from the 17th to the 19th century and hardly any foreigners lived in Japan at the time. For a long time I have disliked the U.K. because of its class system but now I realize it is very similar to the old Japanese social system and I no longer have such negative feelings towards the U.K.
However, my feeling regarding Australians, who discriminate against black people and look down on Americans, has not changed. It seems that some Australians dream to go to England and live and work there and are not proud of being Australian. Is this why Australians look down on other people? Because people who cannot be proud of themselves do so to feel superior? Actually I traveled in Australia twice and all the Australians I met there were well-mannered and trustworthy, but this is not enough to get rid of my negative image of Australians. The only Australian I like is Steve, Crocodile hunter.
You can’t base your opinion of Britain on the film My Fair Lady. For one thing it was made over forty years ago and for another its set in the 19th century. It would be like me basing my opinion of Japan on the movie Akira.
Every country in the world has a class system of some sort whether it is called that or not.
There must be at least a hundred different accents & dialects of English in the United Kingdom, the vast majority of which have nothing to do with class. A person in Cardiff (Wales) is going to speak with a different accent to someone born in the London (England). And within each of those cities people will speak with different accents in different parts of the city. In the vast majority of cases the accent will have nothing to do with class or if it does it is coincidence.
Oh and you’re wrong about the UK not having much exposure to foreigners – it was conquered enough times and there was the Empire which covered two thirds of the globe. It wasn’t as isolationist as Japan was.
Nonny
2008/04/20
Hi,
I just stumbled onto your blog and wanted to thank you. I am learning about the Japanese culture and your views are very educational.
It is surprising what you wrote about Australians. My husband and I had a chance to visit Sydney a few months ago for my company. Before I went there, I had initially thought that I would love Australians as they would be more open-minded than Americans. I even considered the possibilities of moving there. I’m an American and have a view that most of us are selfish, ignorant, close-minded idiots who know nothing and want to know nothing but our own backyard and our own narrow point of view.
At the end of our two-week stay in Australia, even though I loved Sydney and everyone was nice, when my husband asked me if I would like to move there, I replied, no thanks. I think in the end I preferred Americans and the American culture. I am still analyzing why I think this way. But perhaps, even though I think Americans are not an ideal lot, in the end, I think we are moving forward, slowly and sometimes taking backward steps, but still forward.
There was also one difference between Australian and American attitudes that made me prefer the American culture. They have a tall poppy syndrome where they cut down the figurative tall poppy. I think they liked cutting down the U.S. because they view the U.S. as a tall poppy (which we probably do act that way). But for Americans, in general, we do support or admire our tall poppies.
Joyce
2008/05/12
Hi Joyce,
Thank you for your comment. I like it
japaneseview
2008/05/17
Hi Nonny,
I do understand that a dialect is a part of local culture, but I do not understand why people speak with different accents in different parts of London, which is almost the same size as Tokyo. In Tokyo all Japanese speak with the same accent because most children go to public elementary schools and junior high schools where all children of all classes study together. Actually most Japanese people belong to middle class and all mix together in daily life. Thus Japanese people in the same region speak with the same accent. I suppose that different accents in London would reflect British society, which is riven by class even today as the article in the Guardian says below.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/oct/20/britishidentity.socialexclusion
As for class society and racism, I am talking about the geographical isolation of England in comparison to European countries. In Europe people have been able to move to another country easily because there is no ocean between them unlike in the U.K. Therefore many European countries have ethnic minorities within them and it has become a source of racism, I guess.
The British Empire colonized many counties and areas in the world. However, I think that it was only after WWII that the U.K. started accepting many ethnic minorities from the former British colonies.
It was in 1278 under King Edward in England that all Jews were arrested. Then in the year 1290 all of the Jews were expelled from England. I think that this shows how British people kicked out an ethnic minority from their land and made Great Britain a land of Anglo-Saxon British people. Thus, the U.K. did not have a lot of chances to have many foreigners in the past, and they found another way to discriminate – discriminate against their own people based on class, I think.
I try to get rid of my bad image of the U.K., but your proud comment only disappointed me again.
japaneseview
2008/05/17
As a British citizen living in Japan, you’re definitely right that British people are more openly class-conscious than many other nations. A couple of thoughts I had reading through your comments:
“I do not understand why people speak with different accents in different parts of London”
Part of this is class-based, but not all of it. In any case, while British people identify with their class very closely from a psychological point of view, the working class in the UK tend to be fiercely proud of their background and have no desire to be absorbed into the middle class. Class in Britain is based far more on perceptions and upbringing than on work and money since discrimination based on class prejudice has in practice come down dramatically since the end of the war. To summarise, being “working class” is not necessarily undesirable for many people, and certainly not as much of a barrier to a successful life or career as it might seem.
Secondly, the Japanese education system teaches a kind of “standard Japanese” which perhaps has the effect of creating a more or less uniform pronunciation style within a region (correct me if I’m wrong, but there are still huge differences in dialect from region to region). This is supported by the media, which presents “NHK Japanese” as a national standard. In Britain, many people felt concerned that such a situation would result in the erosion of cherished local culture in favour of a London-centric standard. As a result, even though 90% of Britons go to state schools, they take a relaxed approach to spoken English and even the BBC now has a policy of including presenters and newsreaders with a variety of regional accents. The variations in dialect are a point of local or class pride and are a point of identification for communities. It’s a different attitude to Japan but it’s not based on prejudice.
Where class asserts itself is in the greater opportunities afforded to those who have access to money and employment connections. In this way, some aspects of the old class system can still be powerful (going to the right school etc.) but you’ll find that this is just as pronounced in the United States, it’s just that people are less psychologically conscious of class and less likely to self-identify according to it.
dotdash
2008/06/02
It’s good that these topics are being explored but as an Australian I really resent the idea that we ALL think the same and have the SAME attitude towards people of other nationalities. The issue of racism in Australia is a very complex and includes issues such as how indigenous Australians have suffered compared to migrants from other countries, and it cannot be summarised in a 500 word statement. Australia has come a long way since the abolition of the White Australia Policy, which allowed many more migrants of many different nationalities to come to the country and live quite happily with the same rights and responsibilities as any other Australian. There has been a campaign for the last ten years to reconcile with the Aboriginals, whose way of life was all but destroyed with the colonisation of Australia in 1788 and this was finally achieved when the Prime Minister apologised on behalf of white Australia for our shameful past behaviour. I am quite insulted by the blanket statements that are being made about various nationalities. How can you qualify that Australians look down on Americans? What relevance has that got to anything? And I also agree that if you have to judge a culture then don’t base your opinion on a film that was specifically created to make you think and feel a certain way about the subject matter. We’re not perfect, but I doubt that we deserve to be labelled a certain way simply because of a lack of research on your part.
Eliza
2008/06/02
Hi dotdash,
Thank you for your explanation. Class system is one of western things that I feel is difficult to understand.
japaneseview
2008/06/14
Hi Eliza,
Thank you for your comments. I learned English for 8 years at Japanese schools, which taught British English at that time because the English language came from England originally. I had to learn British culture, from Big Ben to Satire, while learning English at Japanese schools. I heard of “My Fair Lady” in English class too because the film reflects British culture even though the story is fictional. I also learned German language as a second foreign language at university and learned German culture to some extent in German classes. Do you think that one can learn a foreign language and ignore its culture?
As for Australians, I did not write “Australians look down on Americans.” I wrote “some Australians” “many Australians” “Australians, who discriminate against black people and look down on Americans.” In the last paragraph, I wrote “Is this why Australians look down on other people?” I did not specify who the other people were. I did not mean only Americans by “other people” because I did not think that all Australians look down on Americans. But if I have offended you, I apologize.
japaneseview
2008/06/14
I just found this blog, I really like it and look forward to reading more of your posts but….
You’re making making presumptions about British culture based on the film “My Fair Lady”?
Wow!!!!
Lets put this in perspective, you are basing your opinion about the British on an American film staring a Belgian.
Seriously, at no time while watching the song and dance spectacular did it occur to you that maybe, just maybe this film does not represent every day life in London.
Paul
2008/07/12
Hi there,
I have no idea why I’m going to do this but I feel that I need to make a few pertinent points.
I’m Australian and therefore, feel the need to defend our country from what I see as outdated or misinterpreted ideas.
Let me address the first the idea of tall poppy syndrome. Sure, it probly exists, but for a country that started as a prison, what can you expect? Its part of our self deprecating, self mocking attitude, that anyone who is up high is ‘fair game’. By no means is this a purely Australian thing however. Perfect example is the way any American President is mocked. Just watch Letterman!
Now this whole idea of anti American sentiment is just wrong. We don’t dislike Americans at all- what we do question is whether they are leading the world down the garden path. In one word, I’ll sum this up: ARROGANCE! Is America arrogant? Tough question, they may or may not be. Here’s the problem. They definitely come across this way. What other country says screw the UN, we’re having our war in Iraq. It is only American arrogance and the fact that they can get away with it, that lets them do this. Actions like this don’t go unnoticed. I’m a school teacher. Trust me, when you study subjects in history like the effectiveness of the UN, this is one to talk about! The US needs to stop thinking that they have a god given right to do what they want, say what they want and act however they want. Heaven forbid if China were ever to reciprocate this attitude on a world scale…
On a more postive side, Australia and America are allies and I think this has been a very beneficial thing for both countries culturally and politically. And yes, we were with America when the invasion of Iraq occurred, as we have been in all other engagements since ww2. just as much anger was directed at the government (now removed from office) as it was towards America.
Now lets move on to racism. This is a subject which you just can’t make any real inrodes into. Sure SOME people in Australia are racists- but in what country aren’t some people? Sure, the treatment of Aborigines has been poor, but governments have been trying for a very long time now- since the cessation of the White Aus Policy, to fix and address the issues. Yes, we’ve said sorry now. (Thanks Kevin) Yes, there is an intevention into the Aboriginal communities up north to try and make things better. People have dedicated their lives trying to make things better.
We ARE NOT a country of racists. We are one of the most multicultural countries in the world. Sure their are some idiots out there. But I doubt its no different than any other country. I’ve spent time in Japan. Japan has a bad time with foreigners, the US has slaugther the Indians…. every country has performed poor acts against others. We don’t look down upon those who have suffered or are suffering- that is NOT AT ALL PART OF AUSTRALIAN CULTURE. You just can’t stereotype that way. Stereotypes are what causes racism in the first place. If I were to say, American thinks they are better than everyone I would be stereotyping. This sort of basic generalisation leads to offence being taken.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Feel free to argue anything. I’m always up for an argument.
Oh. And I love Japan. I’m going back on the JET program. Cya soon.
Tom
2008/07/19
“It seems that some Australians dream to go to England and live and work there”
that`s logical,australia was a british colony (it is still in commonwealth ) and people tend sometimes to return to their roots
LostSoul
2008/08/10
Hi Tom,
Thank you for your comment. I will ask you if I have a new question about Australia.
japaneseview
2008/08/14
Again with the generalising. We don’t dream of going to England. And the whole ‘roots’ idea is ridiculous. Australia is multicultural. Sure the English threw some prisoners here, but since that time the mass of imigration has come from predominantly NON English countries. Melbourne is the third largest Greek city from what I repeatedly here…
Sure, we might like to visit England and look around, but no more than any other country.
And the only reason we’re still in the Commonwealth is because our last PM was a bastard. HE didn’t want a Republic so he framed a confusing question for our constitutional referendum. Now Aust. Constitutional Law needs a 66% majority from my memory, as well as something to do with a majority across all states, in order for a refendum to succeed. But when the Prime Minister asks a question that has several subquestions attached to it, nobody really had a clue what they were doing.
Nevermind. Australia will eventually move away from England in my opinion. What connection do we really have? She visits how often? What power does she have, or influence? Not much anymore. It only seems natural that Australia will continue to separate from England, as it has been doing for a fair while now.
Tom
2008/08/15
Hi,
I applaud that you actually acknowledge that Japanese look down/dislike other Asians. It seems to be taboo to talk about this even though the feeling is prevalent.
I am an American-born Chinese who was a student of Japanese language. I recently ran into Japanese woman who originally was eager to do language exchange with me when she thought I was white, but then decided against doing language exchange because I was of “Chinese origin.” Now, I have to ask myself why I am spending time learning the language of people who dislike me without knowing anything about my social and economic status or personality. It would have been helpful to have known that Japanese people feel this way,so I wouldn’t have wasted my time trying to communicate with people who hate my guts.
I agree that all people have prejudices. I hate the way people China don’t seem to respect queues. I am probably too suspicious of blacks.
On another topic, yeah, the idea of Australians looking down on Americans is kind of laughable. You only need to see which country has economic power, wealth, technological innovation, the finest universities, etc… to see who’s system is better.
Ted-US
2008/08/19
You’re a tosser.
As for “It seems that some Australians dream to go to England and live and work there and are not proud of being Australian.” I am very proud of being an Aussie and wouldn’t choose to live anywhere else. I have absolutely no interest in going to the snobby land of GB. My home is Australia and it will always be.
I always knew you Japs were a little crazy.
Hayley
2008/08/21
Hi Ted-US,
I am learning French even though I think that French people look down on Japanese culture and its people but this does not annoy me. I respect some aspects of French culture, so I am learning French language. I respect what I respect no matter how it affects me.
I think that many Japanese consider English as a western language and they learn it because they like western culture. Some Japanese business people learn English just for their job though. These people are not strongly interested in western culture. If you want to do English/Japanese language exchange, you should choose business people. It is even better to do Chinese/Japanese language exchange because some Japanese people learn Chinese and these people are interested in Chinese culture.
As for “people who dislike me without knowing anything about my social and economic status or personality,” social and economic status is not a factor many Japanese use to decide if they like a person.
Regarding “You only need to see which country has economic power, wealth, technological innovation, the finest universities, etc… to see whose system is better,” you should find out that many non-American westerners look down on Americans for their ignorance, luck of manners and lack of culture.
japaneseview
2008/08/31
Hey sorry you feel that way about Australians, but we arent all like that. Yes we have alot of racists but so does every country, we are a country of only 21 million comparing to the 300 in the U.S. Just think of how many more there are over there, as for you to say we are not proud to be Australian (where did you hear this lol) havent you heard of Australian pride?
Im not attacking you here btw.
Alot of Australian Aborigines, to put it straight cause shit. It is our fault they are that way from earlier days and the white policy but ALOT of ignorant white people just dont see past it and yes have their heads up their arse.
Basically, i grew up in a ghetto like area with aborigines, i have been beaten up, had bricks thrown through my window, my disabled brother picked up and thrown at a wall, threatened with knives and always gotten shit from aborigines no matter how kind i were to them. So some of us have bitterness? I myself arent a racist towards black people at all despite this but i think because there is so many more of you americans, and stories that are more media publicized etc, that is why some of us may look down on americans.
I really wish you didnt have that view on Australians, its not only Australians who look down on people, the U.S (if they do), its every other country in the world also. Sorry for this massive rant ive been awake for 26hrs and pinging on coffee
lolkatey
2008/09/08
Hey Ted,
Do you read the other posts???
“On another topic, yeah, the idea of Australians looking down on Americans is kind of laughable. You only need to see which country has economic power, wealth, technological innovation, the finest universities, etc… to see who’s system is better.”
Now, if you flick back through you’ll realise I said we don’t look down on Americans, we think they’re arrogant bastards. Thankyou for proving my point.
PS. Laughed hard at Hayley’s first response.
Tom
2008/09/09
Nowadays in England I would say that the class barrier is nearly gone, and that most classes get along with each other, at least up in Liverpool and the north. What we do have is a divide between the North and the South, we look down on the South for being Posh and just for being from down south, the same goes for them they look down on us, for being North and viewing us as common. In Liverpool we look down on a place called Southport because they don’t like to be a part of us and for their snobbery the same way they think they’re better than us. But the thing to remember is that not everyone is like the steriotype that is associated with them. I have a friend best friend from Southport and my other best friend came from London and has a London accent. I think Londoners have different accents from the old class separation such as rich people going to one school and poor people to another.
Generally us and Austrailians get along, in fact I would think I’m safe to say we see Austrailians as being like ourselves even if they do take the mick out of us, they share a lot of our slang and we have a connection, we share the same view of America, I do I think America and Americans are Arrgant and Ignorant and I don’t like the way they throw there weight around. I don’t think we share the same connection as we do with Aussies, we see them as being full of themselves where as aussies being down to earth. Although again I have an American penpal who is very nice.
I also have to say that we had a great trading with China and Liverpool has a very old and big Chinese community. So we have mixed and I don’t need to mention about the countless invasions we’ve had.
I have to admit I do judge Americans before I’ve met them, If I see one I think they’re the steriotype or if I hear one, even in my own country, but what I always keep in mind to help me is that we they might not be like that and not to judge one person against a mass of people.
Matthew
2008/09/22
I’m Australian, and i go to high-school. I don’t think we look down on people.
We don’t have a very ‘mixed’ country, and our cities are very large, so it’s never really needed for us to learn about other cultures and they’re traditions.
But I don’t think we look down on other….at all. We just don’t know enough about them to understand them. And to put it bluntly, we are still a very young country, compared to others. We dream of going to England because that is where the first Fleet is from.
But some people are like that. Every where in the world you’ll find people like that. It’s just the way humans are.
Teresa
2008/10/08
Hi, I came across this blog by chance, and just wanted to say that the different accents and dialects in the UK are not the result of discrimination. In fact, most people here in the UK appreciate the fact that people from different classes and areas of the UK speak differently, and many people are actually proud of their particular accent. There are even programs going here that aim to preserve accents that are diappearing!
Yes, accents can be used as a stick to beat people with, but that is beause they’re distinctive. Maybe in Japan there are no real language differences, but surely if someone, say, dresses differently or has an odd hobby, then someone will decide to be a snob and use it against them. It’s no different. All over the world there are people who will look down their nose at people for how they look or where they come from, or how much money their parents have. It is no worse in Britain than it is anywhere else.
I admit the UK is class conscious, but that’s because a lot of people here are obsessed with putting everyone and everything in a box. Many Brits seem to need to group people- and that means class, race, gender, sexuality… there’s a word for everything a person can possibly be.
I remember when I saw the start of My Fair Lady. I was disgusted too- but not at the cockney woman using her dialect, but at the man prancing around, saying how horrible it was that not everyone spoke English like he did. He came across to me as a very arrogant and narrow-minded person who thought that anything he didn’t do was wrong.
It’s just a cultural difference. Brits have lots of regional accents; Japanese have few. Brits are OK with their various accents and don’t see it as a problem; Japanese are OK with having few changes in dialect. Neither country is right or wrong, it’s just the way it is. They’re different countries, and therefore have different cultures.
And Britain has always had immgrants- normally other races came in during invasions. Many people from the North, for example, are actually descended from Danish and Norweigian people who invaded centuries ago. In the 1800’s we had Irish come here to get away from the potato famine. In the 1950’s we had Jamaicans come over to fill the gaps in the work force. Now we have a lot of people from Asia and Eastern Europe who come for either asylum or job opportunities.
Louise
2008/11/24
I’m sure that you think you’re being reasonable here but you come across as being judgmental and ignorant.
I find it quite strange that you are referencing events that happened in 1278 to support your view of Britain today, that was over 700 years ago! It is simply not relevant!
You claim to have learnt about British culture as part of your study of the English language. I find this highly doubtful; your comments repeatedly show a profound ignorance of my country; you stated that Britain is a “land of Anglo-Saxon people” this is rubbish. We have significant minorities from outside of Britain and furthermore, Britain also includes the nations of Wales and Scotland, whose people are Celtic, not Anglo-Saxon. Between this and your frequent misuse of the word “England” instead of Britain or the UK, it is clear that you do not even understand the basic geography of my country, and so your judgment of it is ill-formed and thus irrelevant.
Yes, we have many accents in Britain but this has very little to do with class; the majority of accents are regional. Furthermore your insistence that everyone should speak the same way is narrow-minded. So what if Japanese people all speak with the same accent? Do you really think that it makes Japan any better? This attitude is very Japanese, in the sense that, firstly, it is based upon the assumption that everything Japanese is superior, and secondly, the belief that everyone should be the same.
In the west we embrace the idea of individuality.; it is OK to be different, to challenge society, to think for yourself and to speak with whatever accent you please.
As for your hang-up on Westerners looking down on people; the stories of Westerners being discriminated against in Japan are lexicon, and I would argue that the worst class system to be found is the Indian caste system, where the lower classes are known as “untouchables”. Class systems are definitely not a Western invention.
Your ideas of Australia are similarly outdated and misguided.
I suggest that the next time you decide to give your view on another nation you take the time to learn about it first in order to avoid embarrassing yourself and your fellow citizens of Japan; writing this sort of nonsense on the internet merely serves to reinforce the common stereotype that Japanese people are culturally arrogant.
Dudesworthy
2009/01/17
Australian do not look down on Americans, we just find many Americans annoying. There just seems to be this feeling that Americans have an air superiority. Not too mention the over the top patriot stance. It’s always “U.S.A, U.S.A, U.S.A” Don’t get me wrong I have no prblem with national pride, but Americans seem to shove it in your face constantly?
I know that Australia has a long way to come, before it overcomes certain prejudices, but does not every nation?
Also the reason Australians travel to the UK, is because many Australians still have cultural ties with the UK, working in the UK is a lot easier than any other country if you have an English/UK background. Don’t forget that anglo-saxon people still make up the majority in Australia. I think if you visited London you would see most Australian are very proud to be Australian.
By the way I am not your typical Aussie, my parents are Indian and I was born in Australia, but I still have a strong sense of what it is to be Australian, and sometimes even think characters like the Crocodile Hunter don’t really portray the real Australia.
Brendan
2009/01/21
Hi Dudesworthy,
First of all, my point is not the “same” but “equal”.
Second, I am not talking merely about differences between Scotland, Wales and England but I am referring to larger topics such as the British class system. I wrote “the U.K.” because “England” is a part of “the U.K.” and I believe that the national name of “England” is “the U.K.” By the way, do you know that English, Scottish and Irish all live together in the U.S. in harmony?
Third, in Canada most people speak with the same accent no matter where in Canada they are from because the Canadian government controls standards of education. Do you think that Canadians do not celebrate individual differences?
My fourth point is that a Canadian told me that because the U.K. keeps the class system, it is not easy for people in the lower classes to move to the upper classes. Even today, British people are still immigrating to Canada where everyone are equal. Do you know this?
Fifth, I know that India has Caste class system but I think that it is not fair to compare British society with India’s because India’s geographical and economical conditions are different from the U.K.’s and India has many social problems. Don’t you think that you should compare British society with other European societies such as France and Germany, which have much more egalitarian societies than the U.K.?
japaneseview
2009/02/02
Hi, lolkatey, Matthew, Teresa, Louise, Brendan,
I will re-read your comments and think about this topic again.
Many Thanks.
japaneseview
2009/02/02
Japaneseview,
I’m going to be very blunt about this in the hope that you will understand:
You are wrong
You’re judging an entire country on the basis of an outdated film and second hand opinions. This is obviously a ridiculous thing to do.
I will now tackle some of the points you made in your reply to me:
# First of all, my point is not the “same” but “equal”.
* You’re hiding behind semantics here. You were complaining that people in Britain don’t all speak with the same accent, and that we should all be exactly like Japan, where rigid government control has apparently stamped out all regional accents.
# Second, I am not talking merely about differences between Scotland, Wales and England
* I never said that you were; I said that because you don’t understand the basic geography of Britain you can’t possibly have an informed opinion about its social structure.
# but I am referring to larger topics such as the British class system. I wrote “the U.K.” because “England” is a part of “the U.K.” and I believe that the national name of “England” is “the U.K.”
* Don’t try and wriggle out of this; if you want to talk about England, then type England, if you want to talk about the UK, then type the UK. You cannot use these names interchangeably under any circumstances, ever. Its not hard and if you still don’t understand then I suggest you get a map.
# By the way, do you know that English, Scottish and Irish all live together in the U.S. in harmony?
* We all live in harmony together in the UK, actually. The last battle in Britain was in 1745. Not exactly recent is it?
# Third, in Canada most people speak with the same accent no matter where in Canada they are from because the Canadian government controls standards of education.
* No they don’t. There are clear differences in accent between Canadians in the Atlantic Provinces, Quebec, Central and Pacific.
And what is your hang-up with everyone having to speak with the same accent? In the West we are allowed to be individuals. We don’t all have to speak and think in the same way.
And what’s all this about the Canadian government controlling standards of education?
Do you think that the British government doesn’t?
We just don’t feel the need to brainwash our children into speaking the same way like you do in Japan.
# My fourth point is that a Canadian told me that because the U.K. keeps the class system, it is not easy for people in the lower classes to move to the upper classes. Even today, British people are still immigrating to Canada where everyone are equal. Do you know this?
1) The word is emigrating not immigrating.
2) Stop asking me “Do you know this” it sounds patronizing; we’re talking about my country here, so don’t you think that I might just, possibly, perhaps, know slightly more about it than you do? Maybe?
3) We are all equal in Britain. Certainly far more so than in Japan where you can’t even become a citizen unless you have Japanese ancestry.
4) There has been a great deal of legislation passed over the past 20 years to break down the class system. Many of our leading politicians (and indeed our current Prime minister) come from lower class backgrounds.
5) Yet again you’re basing you’re judgments upon things other people have told you rather than your own experience.
6) British people emigrate everywhere. The majority of British emigrants went to Spain last year; it doesn’t mean a thing.
# Fifth, I know that India has Caste class system but I think that it is not fair to compare British society with India’s because India’s geographical and economical conditions are different from the U.K.’s and India has many social problems.
* Your previous posts seemed to indicate that you thought class systems were a uniquely British phenomenon, I was trying to show you that they occur throughout the world in many different cultures. Very little of the class distinctions remain in Britain. I say this as a member of the lower class who has funny accent; I’ve been to university, I have a good job and I have never felt discriminated against because of my accent or my background.
# Don’t you think that you should compare British society with other European societies such as France and Germany, which have much more egalitarian societies than the U.K.?
* France is more egalitarian than Britain?! If that’s the case then why were all the French Muslims rioting and burning cars in Paris last year? Why did the French ban them from wearing head scarves in schools?
And Germany is well known for anti-semitic and neo-nazi movements in the East. Half the country was a communist state less than 25 years ago.
Obviously these are extreme examples, but Britain is no less egalitarian than any other European country. Your belief that British people live under some sort of repressive tyranny is just more of your uniformed prejudice.
What exactly is your problem with my country?
Dudesworthy
2009/02/02
Hi Dudesworthy,
Read the Guardian while I am writing you. You said, “Very little of the class distinctions remain in Britain.” The Guardian said as follows.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/oct/20/britishidentity.socialexclusion
Riven by class and no social mobility – Britain in 2007
· No change in 10 years of Labour rule
· 89% say they are judged by class
· Poll shows deep North-South gap
* Julian Glover
* The Guardian, Saturday 20 October 2007
* Article history
Ten years of Labour rule have failed to create a classless society, according to a Guardian/ICM poll published today. It shows that Britain remains a nation dominated by class division, with a huge majority certain that their social standing determines the way they are judged.
Of those questioned, 89% said they think people are still judged by their class – with almost half saying that it still counts for “a lot”. Only 8% think that class does not matter at all in shaping the way people are seen.
The poorest people in society are most aware of its impact, with 55% of them saying class, not ability, greatly affects the way they are seen.
Gordon Brown claimed at this year’s Labour conference that “a class-free society is not a slogan but in Britain can become a reality”. But even the supposedly meritocratic Thatcher generation of adults born in the 1980s appear to doubt that: 90% of 18-24 year-olds say people are judged by their class.
The poll also shows that after 10 years of Labour government, social change in Britain is almost static. Despite the collapse of industrial employment, the working class is an unchanging majority. In 1998, when ICM last asked, 55% of people considered themselves working class. Now the figure stands at 53%.
Of people born to working class parents, 77% say they are working class too. Only one fifth say they have become middle class.
Despite huge economic change and the government’s efforts to build what it calls an opportunity society, people who think of themselves as middle class are still in a minority. In 1998, 41% of people thought of themselves as middle class, exactly the same proportion as today. The upper class is almost extinct, with only 2% of those who answered claiming to be part of it.
The poll paints a picture of a nation divided by social attitudes and life-chances, with 47% of those living in south-east England considering themselves middle class, against 39% in the north and 35% in Wales and the west.
Northern England remains a working-class heartland, with 57% of people describing themselves as part of it.
Scots – 47% of whom think they are middle class – are just as class-bound as English citizens. Almost half of Scots say that class plays an important part in the way people are judged by others.
Social change is taking place slowly. The middle class has grown: although 41% of people think they are part of it, only 32% say their parents were. In 1998, 69% of people thought their parents were working class. Now only 63% say so, and of those only 53% say they are working class themselves. That shift mirrors the attitude of the former deputy prime minister John Prescott, who admitted “I’m pretty middle class” despite his working class origins.
But many class attitudes have survived economic change. That suggests people are still judged by where they come from rather than how much they earn.
· ICM Research interviewed a random sample of 1,011 on October 17-18. Interviews were conducted across the country and the results have been weighted to the profile of all adults. ICM is a member of the British Polling Council and abides by its rules.
japaneseview
2009/02/12
Hi Dudesworthy,
#I say this as a member of the lower class who has funny accent; I’ve been to university, I have a good job and I have never felt discriminated against because of my accent or my background.
*Depending on personal experience can be misleading as it is often a very subjective interpretation. By the way, you wrote that you have been to university and have a good job despite of your background, but that certainly doesn’t reflect in your writing, as you have resorted to insults such as calling my writing “ignorant”, “rubbish”, and stating that I was “embarrassing myself.” Perhaps this is a true reflection of the British class system…
# Don’t try and wriggle out of this; if you want to talk about England, then type England, if you want to talk about the UK, then type the UK. You cannot use these names interchangeably under any circumstances, ever.
#We all live in harmony together in the UK, actually. The last battle in Britain was in 1745.
*Differences among the England, Scotland and Wales are a local issue to many people outside the U.K. I think that the fact that you are so concerned about differences of England and the U.K. shows that the U.K. is mentally fractured into England, Scotland and Wales. In General Americans and French say “I am an American.” or “I am a French.” no matter which part of the country they are from.
#There are clear differences in accent between Canadians in the Atlantic Provinces, Quebec, Central and Pacific.
*I have talked to Canadians from all those areas and their English is not as different as people from London – One speaks very clearly like BBC and another speaks an English of which I can understand almost nothing. Actually I am not talking about “dialect” but different accents in such a small area as London or Tokyo. I understand that “dialect” is a part of a regional culture as I live in Tokyo but I am originally from Osaka where people speak Japanese with a very different accent from Tokyo. However in the same city in Japan, people speak with the same accent because most of children go to a public elementary school.
#you stated that Britain is a “land of Anglo-Saxon people” this is rubbish. We have significant minorities from outside of Britain
*British Whites in England represent the majority of the population while the percentage of ethnic minorities is quite small. And Anglo-Saxons came to Britain long ago. So, I think that it is safe to say, “Britain is a land of Anglo-Saxons.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_Kingdom
http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/anglosaxons/invasion/invind3.shtml
#Japan, where rigid government control has apparently stamped out all regional accents.
*Japan has many dialects. How much do you know outside the U.K.? My major is neither western culture nor language but I know that education has been free in Germany, and that Scandinavian countries have excellent welfare systems and that the French have social democracy, where some markets are controlled by the government. Japan has referred to many things in the west to develop our society, such as the welfare system, political system, and education. As a result many Japanese are well versed about the west.
#France is more egalitarian than Britain?!
#And Germany is well known for anti-semitic and neo-nazi movements in the East.
*I am talking about how the society treats their own people such as welfare system, free education, republic, etc. I am not talking about racism in France and Germany. I am referring to the British class system in this blog post.
I do not understand why the U.K., being as developed as France and Germany, discriminates against their own people through its class system. I do not like that because I believe in freedom and equality. These ideas are not from traditional Japanese culture but from the American influence after WWII in Japan. I suppose that the American ideas of “freedom and equality” derive from France during the time of American Independence and the French Revolution.
japaneseview
2009/02/18
You seem to be speaking as if the UK is behind Japan in a society sense… The class system, no longer exsists, just like in Japan.
Dan
2009/05/11
Hi Dan,
The Guardian’s article “Riven by class and no social mobility – Britain in 2007” above is wrong?
japaneseview
2009/05/20
The poll in The Guardian’s article is one of perceptions and confirms that British people are likely to self-identify according to class.
I’ve lived in Japan for a little under eight years now and there are obviously differences between Japan and Britain (as well as innumerably similarities). Japan has a smaller gap between rich and poor than the U.K. (although the U.K. has a smaller gap than the United States), and Japanese people are far less conscious of class. In fact, in my experience many Japanese don’t like the concept even being discussed in relation to Japanese society. If I was pushed to make a generalisation, I’d say that Japanese people are often very proud of the cultural traits that unite them as a people, with Japan’s “homogeneity” often considered a point of pride. British people are often very proud of the traits that separate them from others, with class often a strong point of identification. In practice, I think Japan is far less homogeneous than its image and Britain is probably far less culturally stratified than its people think. To summarise, the difference is far more about how people see themselves, which is an important factor in a society, but you’d need to go into more easily measurable factors, particularly economics, if you want to make any kind of useful comparison between class mobility in any two given countries.
>Dudesworthy
“…like Japan, where rigid government control has apparently stamped out all regional accents.”
There are radical differences in accent between different parts of Japan. Someone with a strong Aomori dialect would be almost unintelligible to someone from Kagoshima. Okinawa retains both its own distinct dialect of Japanese as well as its own language and culture from before the Ryukyu Islands were formally annexed in 1879. The Ainu people, mostly living in Hokkaido, similarly retain a cultural identity and language distinct from mainstream Japanese society.
“…you can’t even become a citizen unless you have Japanese ancestry.”
You can become a citizen after living in Japan for a certain number of years (not sure exactly how many). It’s very similar to the U.K.’s policy on naturalisation.
dotdash
2009/06/22
Hi dotdash,
A Canadian, who is of English origin, told me that British people cannot get away from the lower class no matter how much they try to do so, so they move to Canada from England.
>Japanese people are far less conscious of class
Because it is discrimination in contemporary Japanese culture. I remember that a university student was shocked by an English word “lower class” during English class and was absent from classes. The professor claimed that “lower class” is commonly used in English but after all he was given a suspension from office as punishment. This event showed up in a major Japanese paper in 2000 or 2001. Japan has very small numbers of privileged people such as the emperor family and their relatives, descendants of Shogun’s family and descendants of the feudal lard family from the Edo period, but in daily life we hear of only the emperor family and a few of their relatives through the media. We have discriminated people called “buraku-min” who are descendants of the lowest class of the social position system from the Edo period. Japanese compulsory education teaches their history to abolish discrimination.
I think that as for class society these facts are more important differences between Britain and Japan rather than differences between British ideas of “separate them from others” and Japanese ideas of “homogeneity.”
japaneseview
2009/09/27