My image of British and Australians

Posted on 2008/04/12. Filed under: Australia, Europe, Japan | Tags: , |

About 15 years ago when I watched “My fair Lady,” I thought that the U.K. was an awful country where people from different classes speak different kinds of English even if they live in the same city. Japanese people living in the same city speak the same Japanese no matter how poor they are.

About a month ago I got very angry when I read an email from my European friend because he looked down on U.S. people while he paid respect to his friend in Australia. (I thought that his friend is Australian but he is not.)

I have met some Australians who look down on U.S. people. I know that many Australians secretly discriminate against black people in their minds even now. I suppose that this comes from the Australia White Policy, which ended not so long ago. How can they look down on U.S. people without feeling shame for their own past and current discrimination?

I wrote this to my European friend and he responded, “Japanese people look down on Chinese and Korean people too. Everyone looks down on someone.” Yes, even now Japanese people tend to look down on Koreans and Chinese because Japan won the war against China and colonized Korea. After all, those who criticize discrimination in another country also look down on some other people.

Now my feelings toward the British class system has changed a little. The U.K. is an island country, which did not have a lot of chances to have many foreigners in the past, and they found another way to discriminate– discriminate against their own people based on class, I think. Japan also had a social class system from the 17th to the 19th century and hardly any foreigners lived in Japan at the time. For a long time I have disliked the U.K. because of its class system but now I realize it is very similar to the old Japanese social system and I no longer have such negative feelings towards the U.K.

However, my feeling regarding Australians, who discriminate against black people and look down on Americans, has not changed. It seems that some Australians dream to go to England and live and work there and are not proud of being Australian. Is this why Australians look down on other people? Because people who cannot be proud of themselves do so to feel superior? Actually I traveled in Australia twice and all the Australians I met there were well-mannered and trustworthy, but this is not enough to get rid of my negative image of Australians. The only Australian I like is Steve, Crocodile hunter.

Reference:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/oct/20/britishidentity.socialexclusion

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58 Responses to “My image of British and Australians”

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You can’t base your opinion of Britain on the film My Fair Lady. For one thing it was made over forty years ago and for another its set in the 19th century. It would be like me basing my opinion of Japan on the movie Akira.

Every country in the world has a class system of some sort whether it is called that or not.


There must be at least a hundred different accents & dialects of English in the United Kingdom, the vast majority of which have nothing to do with class. A person in Cardiff (Wales) is going to speak with a different accent to someone born in the London (England). And within each of those cities people will speak with different accents in different parts of the city. In the vast majority of cases the accent will have nothing to do with class or if it does it is coincidence.

Oh and you’re wrong about the UK not having much exposure to foreigners – it was conquered enough times and there was the Empire which covered two thirds of the globe. It wasn’t as isolationist as Japan was.

Hi,

I just stumbled onto your blog and wanted to thank you. I am learning about the Japanese culture and your views are very educational.

It is surprising what you wrote about Australians. My husband and I had a chance to visit Sydney a few months ago for my company. Before I went there, I had initially thought that I would love Australians as they would be more open-minded than Americans. I even considered the possibilities of moving there. I’m an American and have a view that most of us are selfish, ignorant, close-minded idiots who know nothing and want to know nothing but our own backyard and our own narrow point of view.

At the end of our two-week stay in Australia, even though I loved Sydney and everyone was nice, when my husband asked me if I would like to move there, I replied, no thanks. I think in the end I preferred Americans and the American culture. I am still analyzing why I think this way. But perhaps, even though I think Americans are not an ideal lot, in the end, I think we are moving forward, slowly and sometimes taking backward steps, but still forward.

There was also one difference between Australian and American attitudes that made me prefer the American culture. They have a tall poppy syndrome where they cut down the figurative tall poppy. I think they liked cutting down the U.S. because they view the U.S. as a tall poppy (which we probably do act that way). But for Americans, in general, we do support or admire our tall poppies.

Hi Joyce,

Thank you for your comment. I like it :)

Hi Nonny,

I do understand that a dialect is a part of local culture, but I do not understand why people speak with different accents in different parts of London, which is almost the same size as Tokyo. In Tokyo all Japanese speak with the same accent because most children go to public elementary schools and junior high schools where all children of all classes study together. Actually most Japanese people belong to middle class and all mix together in daily life. Thus Japanese people in the same region speak with the same accent. I suppose that different accents in London would reflect British society, which is riven by class even today as the article in the Guardian says below.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/oct/20/britishidentity.socialexclusion

As for class society and racism, I am talking about the geographical isolation of England in comparison to European countries. In Europe people have been able to move to another country easily because there is no ocean between them unlike in the U.K. Therefore many European countries have ethnic minorities within them and it has become a source of racism, I guess.

The British Empire colonized many counties and areas in the world. However, I think that it was only after WWII that the U.K. started accepting many ethnic minorities from the former British colonies.

It was in 1278 under King Edward in England that all Jews were arrested. Then in the year 1290 all of the Jews were expelled from England. I think that this shows how British people kicked out an ethnic minority from their land and made Great Britain a land of Anglo-Saxon British people. Thus, the U.K. did not have a lot of chances to have many foreigners in the past, and they found another way to discriminate – discriminate against their own people based on class, I think.

I try to get rid of my bad image of the U.K., but your proud comment only disappointed me again.

As a British citizen living in Japan, you’re definitely right that British people are more openly class-conscious than many other nations. A couple of thoughts I had reading through your comments:

“I do not understand why people speak with different accents in different parts of London”

Part of this is class-based, but not all of it. In any case, while British people identify with their class very closely from a psychological point of view, the working class in the UK tend to be fiercely proud of their background and have no desire to be absorbed into the middle class. Class in Britain is based far more on perceptions and upbringing than on work and money since discrimination based on class prejudice has in practice come down dramatically since the end of the war. To summarise, being “working class” is not necessarily undesirable for many people, and certainly not as much of a barrier to a successful life or career as it might seem.

Secondly, the Japanese education system teaches a kind of “standard Japanese” which perhaps has the effect of creating a more or less uniform pronunciation style within a region (correct me if I’m wrong, but there are still huge differences in dialect from region to region). This is supported by the media, which presents “NHK Japanese” as a national standard. In Britain, many people felt concerned that such a situation would result in the erosion of cherished local culture in favour of a London-centric standard. As a result, even though 90% of Britons go to state schools, they take a relaxed approach to spoken English and even the BBC now has a policy of including presenters and newsreaders with a variety of regional accents. The variations in dialect are a point of local or class pride and are a point of identification for communities. It’s a different attitude to Japan but it’s not based on prejudice.

Where class asserts itself is in the greater opportunities afforded to those who have access to money and employment connections. In this way, some aspects of the old class system can still be powerful (going to the right school etc.) but you’ll find that this is just as pronounced in the United States, it’s just that people are less psychologically conscious of class and less likely to self-identify according to it.

It’s good that these topics are being explored but as an Australian I really resent the idea that we ALL think the same and have the SAME attitude towards people of other nationalities. The issue of racism in Australia is a very complex and includes issues such as how indigenous Australians have suffered compared to migrants from other countries, and it cannot be summarised in a 500 word statement. Australia has come a long way since the abolition of the White Australia Policy, which allowed many more migrants of many different nationalities to come to the country and live quite happily with the same rights and responsibilities as any other Australian. There has been a campaign for the last ten years to reconcile with the Aboriginals, whose way of life was all but destroyed with the colonisation of Australia in 1788 and this was finally achieved when the Prime Minister apologised on behalf of white Australia for our shameful past behaviour. I am quite insulted by the blanket statements that are being made about various nationalities. How can you qualify that Australians look down on Americans? What relevance has that got to anything? And I also agree that if you have to judge a culture then don’t base your opinion on a film that was specifically created to make you think and feel a certain way about the subject matter. We’re not perfect, but I doubt that we deserve to be labelled a certain way simply because of a lack of research on your part.

Hi dotdash,

Thank you for your explanation. Class system is one of western things that I feel is difficult to understand.

Hi Eliza,

Thank you for your comments. I learned English for 8 years at Japanese schools, which taught British English at that time because the English language came from England originally. I had to learn British culture, from Big Ben to Satire, while learning English at Japanese schools. I heard of “My Fair Lady” in English class too because the film reflects British culture even though the story is fictional. I also learned German language as a second foreign language at university and learned German culture to some extent in German classes. Do you think that one can learn a foreign language and ignore its culture?

As for Australians, I did not write “Australians look down on Americans.” I wrote “some Australians” “many Australians” “Australians, who discriminate against black people and look down on Americans.” In the last paragraph, I wrote “Is this why Australians look down on other people?” I did not specify who the other people were. I did not mean only Americans by “other people” because I did not think that all Australians look down on Americans. But if I have offended you, I apologize.

I just found this blog, I really like it and look forward to reading more of your posts but….

You’re making making presumptions about British culture based on the film “My Fair Lady”?

Wow!!!!

Lets put this in perspective, you are basing your opinion about the British on an American film staring a Belgian.

Seriously, at no time while watching the song and dance spectacular did it occur to you that maybe, just maybe this film does not represent every day life in London.

Hi there,

I have no idea why I’m going to do this but I feel that I need to make a few pertinent points.

I’m Australian and therefore, feel the need to defend our country from what I see as outdated or misinterpreted ideas.

Let me address the first the idea of tall poppy syndrome. Sure, it probly exists, but for a country that started as a prison, what can you expect? Its part of our self deprecating, self mocking attitude, that anyone who is up high is ‘fair game’. By no means is this a purely Australian thing however. Perfect example is the way any American President is mocked. Just watch Letterman!

Now this whole idea of anti American sentiment is just wrong. We don’t dislike Americans at all- what we do question is whether they are leading the world down the garden path. In one word, I’ll sum this up: ARROGANCE! Is America arrogant? Tough question, they may or may not be. Here’s the problem. They definitely come across this way. What other country says screw the UN, we’re having our war in Iraq. It is only American arrogance and the fact that they can get away with it, that lets them do this. Actions like this don’t go unnoticed. I’m a school teacher. Trust me, when you study subjects in history like the effectiveness of the UN, this is one to talk about! The US needs to stop thinking that they have a god given right to do what they want, say what they want and act however they want. Heaven forbid if China were ever to reciprocate this attitude on a world scale…

On a more postive side, Australia and America are allies and I think this has been a very beneficial thing for both countries culturally and politically. And yes, we were with America when the invasion of Iraq occurred, as we have been in all other engagements since ww2. just as much anger was directed at the government (now removed from office) as it was towards America.

Now lets move on to racism. This is a subject which you just can’t make any real inrodes into. Sure SOME people in Australia are racists- but in what country aren’t some people? Sure, the treatment of Aborigines has been poor, but governments have been trying for a very long time now- since the cessation of the White Aus Policy, to fix and address the issues. Yes, we’ve said sorry now. (Thanks Kevin) Yes, there is an intevention into the Aboriginal communities up north to try and make things better. People have dedicated their lives trying to make things better.
We ARE NOT a country of racists. We are one of the most multicultural countries in the world. Sure their are some idiots out there. But I doubt its no different than any other country. I’ve spent time in Japan. Japan has a bad time with foreigners, the US has slaugther the Indians…. every country has performed poor acts against others. We don’t look down upon those who have suffered or are suffering- that is NOT AT ALL PART OF AUSTRALIAN CULTURE. You just can’t stereotype that way. Stereotypes are what causes racism in the first place. If I were to say, American thinks they are better than everyone I would be stereotyping. This sort of basic generalisation leads to offence being taken.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Feel free to argue anything. I’m always up for an argument.

Oh. And I love Japan. I’m going back on the JET program. Cya soon. ;)

“It seems that some Australians dream to go to England and live and work there”

that`s logical,australia was a british colony (it is still in commonwealth ) and people tend sometimes to return to their roots

Hi Tom,

Thank you for your comment. I will ask you if I have a new question about Australia.

Again with the generalising. We don’t dream of going to England. And the whole ‘roots’ idea is ridiculous. Australia is multicultural. Sure the English threw some prisoners here, but since that time the mass of imigration has come from predominantly NON English countries. Melbourne is the third largest Greek city from what I repeatedly here…

Sure, we might like to visit England and look around, but no more than any other country.

And the only reason we’re still in the Commonwealth is because our last PM was a bastard. HE didn’t want a Republic so he framed a confusing question for our constitutional referendum. Now Aust. Constitutional Law needs a 66% majority from my memory, as well as something to do with a majority across all states, in order for a refendum to succeed. But when the Prime Minister asks a question that has several subquestions attached to it, nobody really had a clue what they were doing.

Nevermind. Australia will eventually move away from England in my opinion. What connection do we really have? She visits how often? What power does she have, or influence? Not much anymore. It only seems natural that Australia will continue to separate from England, as it has been doing for a fair while now.

Hi,

I applaud that you actually acknowledge that Japanese look down/dislike other Asians. It seems to be taboo to talk about this even though the feeling is prevalent.

I am an American-born Chinese who was a student of Japanese language. I recently ran into Japanese woman who originally was eager to do language exchange with me when she thought I was white, but then decided against doing language exchange because I was of “Chinese origin.” Now, I have to ask myself why I am spending time learning the language of people who dislike me without knowing anything about my social and economic status or personality. It would have been helpful to have known that Japanese people feel this way,so I wouldn’t have wasted my time trying to communicate with people who hate my guts.

I agree that all people have prejudices. I hate the way people China don’t seem to respect queues. I am probably too suspicious of blacks.

On another topic, yeah, the idea of Australians looking down on Americans is kind of laughable. You only need to see which country has economic power, wealth, technological innovation, the finest universities, etc… to see who’s system is better.

You’re a tosser.

As for “It seems that some Australians dream to go to England and live and work there and are not proud of being Australian.” I am very proud of being an Aussie and wouldn’t choose to live anywhere else. I have absolutely no interest in going to the snobby land of GB. My home is Australia and it will always be.

I always knew you Japs were a little crazy.

Hi Ted-US,

I am learning French even though I think that French people look down on Japanese culture and its people but this does not annoy me. I respect some aspects of French culture, so I am learning French language. I respect what I respect no matter how it affects me.

I think that many Japanese consider English as a western language and they learn it because they like western culture. Some Japanese business people learn English just for their job though. These people are not strongly interested in western culture. If you want to do English/Japanese language exchange, you should choose business people. It is even better to do Chinese/Japanese language exchange because some Japanese people learn Chinese and these people are interested in Chinese culture.

As for “people who dislike me without knowing anything about my social and economic status or personality,” social and economic status is not a factor many Japanese use to decide if they like a person.

Regarding “You only need to see which country has economic power, wealth, technological innovation, the finest universities, etc… to see whose system is better,” you should find out that many non-American westerners look down on Americans for their ignorance, luck of manners and lack of culture.

Hey sorry you feel that way about Australians, but we arent all like that. Yes we have alot of racists but so does every country, we are a country of only 21 million comparing to the 300 in the U.S. Just think of how many more there are over there, as for you to say we are not proud to be Australian (where did you hear this lol) havent you heard of Australian pride?
Im not attacking you here btw.

Alot of Australian Aborigines, to put it straight cause shit. It is our fault they are that way from earlier days and the white policy but ALOT of ignorant white people just dont see past it and yes have their heads up their arse.

Basically, i grew up in a ghetto like area with aborigines, i have been beaten up, had bricks thrown through my window, my disabled brother picked up and thrown at a wall, threatened with knives and always gotten shit from aborigines no matter how kind i were to them. So some of us have bitterness? I myself arent a racist towards black people at all despite this but i think because there is so many more of you americans, and stories that are more media publicized etc, that is why some of us may look down on americans.
I really wish you didnt have that view on Australians, its not only Australians who look down on people, the U.S (if they do), its every other country in the world also. Sorry for this massive rant ive been awake for 26hrs and pinging on coffee

Hey Ted,

Do you read the other posts???

“On another topic, yeah, the idea of Australians looking down on Americans is kind of laughable. You only need to see which country has economic power, wealth, technological innovation, the finest universities, etc… to see who’s system is better.”

Now, if you flick back through you’ll realise I said we don’t look down on Americans, we think they’re arrogant bastards. Thankyou for proving my point.

PS. Laughed hard at Hayley’s first response.

Nowadays in England I would say that the class barrier is nearly gone, and that most classes get along with each other, at least up in Liverpool and the north. What we do have is a divide between the North and the South, we look down on the South for being Posh and just for being from down south, the same goes for them they look down on us, for being North and viewing us as common. In Liverpool we look down on a place called Southport because they don’t like to be a part of us and for their snobbery the same way they think they’re better than us. But the thing to remember is that not everyone is like the steriotype that is associated with them. I have a friend best friend from Southport and my other best friend came from London and has a London accent. I think Londoners have different accents from the old class separation such as rich people going to one school and poor people to another.

Generally us and Austrailians get along, in fact I would think I’m safe to say we see Austrailians as being like ourselves even if they do take the mick out of us, they share a lot of our slang and we have a connection, we share the same view of America, I do I think America and Americans are Arrgant and Ignorant and I don’t like the way they throw there weight around. I don’t think we share the same connection as we do with Aussies, we see them as being full of themselves where as aussies being down to earth. Although again I have an American penpal who is very nice.

I also have to say that we had a great trading with China and Liverpool has a very old and big Chinese community. So we have mixed and I don’t need to mention about the countless invasions we’ve had.

I have to admit I do judge Americans before I’ve met them, If I see one I think they’re the steriotype or if I hear one, even in my own country, but what I always keep in mind to help me is that we they might not be like that and not to judge one person against a mass of people.

I’m Australian, and i go to high-school. I don’t think we look down on people.
We don’t have a very ‘mixed’ country, and our cities are very large, so it’s never really needed for us to learn about other cultures and they’re traditions.

But I don’t think we look down on other….at all. We just don’t know enough about them to understand them. And to put it bluntly, we are still a very young country, compared to others. We dream of going to England because that is where the first Fleet is from.
But some people are like that. Every where in the world you’ll find people like that. It’s just the way humans are.

Hi, I came across this blog by chance, and just wanted to say that the different accents and dialects in the UK are not the result of discrimination. In fact, most people here in the UK appreciate the fact that people from different classes and areas of the UK speak differently, and many people are actually proud of their particular accent. There are even programs going here that aim to preserve accents that are diappearing!

Yes, accents can be used as a stick to beat people with, but that is beause they’re distinctive. Maybe in Japan there are no real language differences, but surely if someone, say, dresses differently or has an odd hobby, then someone will decide to be a snob and use it against them. It’s no different. All over the world there are people who will look down their nose at people for how they look or where they come from, or how much money their parents have. It is no worse in Britain than it is anywhere else.

I admit the UK is class conscious, but that’s because a lot of people here are obsessed with putting everyone and everything in a box. Many Brits seem to need to group people- and that means class, race, gender, sexuality… there’s a word for everything a person can possibly be.

I remember when I saw the start of My Fair Lady. I was disgusted too- but not at the cockney woman using her dialect, but at the man prancing around, saying how horrible it was that not everyone spoke English like he did. He came across to me as a very arrogant and narrow-minded person who thought that anything he didn’t do was wrong.

It’s just a cultural difference. Brits have lots of regional accents; Japanese have few. Brits are OK with their various accents and don’t see it as a problem; Japanese are OK with having few changes in dialect. Neither country is right or wrong, it’s just the way it is. They’re different countries, and therefore have different cultures.

And Britain has always had immgrants- normally other races came in during invasions. Many people from the North, for example, are actually descended from Danish and Norweigian people who invaded centuries ago. In the 1800′s we had Irish come here to get away from the potato famine. In the 1950′s we had Jamaicans come over to fill the gaps in the work force. Now we have a lot of people from Asia and Eastern Europe who come for either asylum or job opportunities.

I’m sure that you think you’re being reasonable here but you come across as being judgmental and ignorant.

I find it quite strange that you are referencing events that happened in 1278 to support your view of Britain today, that was over 700 years ago! It is simply not relevant!

You claim to have learnt about British culture as part of your study of the English language. I find this highly doubtful; your comments repeatedly show a profound ignorance of my country; you stated that Britain is a “land of Anglo-Saxon people” this is rubbish. We have significant minorities from outside of Britain and furthermore, Britain also includes the nations of Wales and Scotland, whose people are Celtic, not Anglo-Saxon. Between this and your frequent misuse of the word “England” instead of Britain or the UK, it is clear that you do not even understand the basic geography of my country, and so your judgment of it is ill-formed and thus irrelevant.

Yes, we have many accents in Britain but this has very little to do with class; the majority of accents are regional. Furthermore your insistence that everyone should speak the same way is narrow-minded. So what if Japanese people all speak with the same accent? Do you really think that it makes Japan any better? This attitude is very Japanese, in the sense that, firstly, it is based upon the assumption that everything Japanese is superior, and secondly, the belief that everyone should be the same.

In the west we embrace the idea of individuality.; it is OK to be different, to challenge society, to think for yourself and to speak with whatever accent you please.

As for your hang-up on Westerners looking down on people; the stories of Westerners being discriminated against in Japan are lexicon, and I would argue that the worst class system to be found is the Indian caste system, where the lower classes are known as “untouchables”. Class systems are definitely not a Western invention.

Your ideas of Australia are similarly outdated and misguided.

I suggest that the next time you decide to give your view on another nation you take the time to learn about it first in order to avoid embarrassing yourself and your fellow citizens of Japan; writing this sort of nonsense on the internet merely serves to reinforce the common stereotype that Japanese people are culturally arrogant.

Australian do not look down on Americans, we just find many Americans annoying. There just seems to be this feeling that Americans have an air superiority. Not too mention the over the top patriot stance. It’s always “U.S.A, U.S.A, U.S.A” Don’t get me wrong I have no prblem with national pride, but Americans seem to shove it in your face constantly?

I know that Australia has a long way to come, before it overcomes certain prejudices, but does not every nation?

Also the reason Australians travel to the UK, is because many Australians still have cultural ties with the UK, working in the UK is a lot easier than any other country if you have an English/UK background. Don’t forget that anglo-saxon people still make up the majority in Australia. I think if you visited London you would see most Australian are very proud to be Australian.

By the way I am not your typical Aussie, my parents are Indian and I was born in Australia, but I still have a strong sense of what it is to be Australian, and sometimes even think characters like the Crocodile Hunter don’t really portray the real Australia.

Hi Dudesworthy,

First of all, my point is not the “same” but “equal”.

Second, I am not talking merely about differences between Scotland, Wales and England but I am referring to larger topics such as the British class system. I wrote “the U.K.” because “England” is a part of “the U.K.” and I believe that the national name of “England” is “the U.K.” By the way, do you know that English, Scottish and Irish all live together in the U.S. in harmony?

Third, in Canada most people speak with the same accent no matter where in Canada they are from because the Canadian government controls standards of education. Do you think that Canadians do not celebrate individual differences?

My fourth point is that a Canadian told me that because the U.K. keeps the class system, it is not easy for people in the lower classes to move to the upper classes. Even today, British people are still immigrating to Canada where everyone are equal. Do you know this?

Fifth, I know that India has Caste class system but I think that it is not fair to compare British society with India’s because India’s geographical and economical conditions are different from the U.K.’s and India has many social problems. Don’t you think that you should compare British society with other European societies such as France and Germany, which have much more egalitarian societies than the U.K.?

Hi, lolkatey, Matthew, Teresa, Louise, Brendan,

I will re-read your comments and think about this topic again.

Many Thanks.

Japaneseview,

I’m going to be very blunt about this in the hope that you will understand:

You are wrong

You’re judging an entire country on the basis of an outdated film and second hand opinions. This is obviously a ridiculous thing to do.

I will now tackle some of the points you made in your reply to me:

# First of all, my point is not the “same” but “equal”.

* You’re hiding behind semantics here. You were complaining that people in Britain don’t all speak with the same accent, and that we should all be exactly like Japan, where rigid government control has apparently stamped out all regional accents.

# Second, I am not talking merely about differences between Scotland, Wales and England

* I never said that you were; I said that because you don’t understand the basic geography of Britain you can’t possibly have an informed opinion about its social structure.

# but I am referring to larger topics such as the British class system. I wrote “the U.K.” because “England” is a part of “the U.K.” and I believe that the national name of “England” is “the U.K.”

* Don’t try and wriggle out of this; if you want to talk about England, then type England, if you want to talk about the UK, then type the UK. You cannot use these names interchangeably under any circumstances, ever. Its not hard and if you still don’t understand then I suggest you get a map.

# By the way, do you know that English, Scottish and Irish all live together in the U.S. in harmony?

* We all live in harmony together in the UK, actually. The last battle in Britain was in 1745. Not exactly recent is it?

# Third, in Canada most people speak with the same accent no matter where in Canada they are from because the Canadian government controls standards of education.

* No they don’t. There are clear differences in accent between Canadians in the Atlantic Provinces, Quebec, Central and Pacific.

And what is your hang-up with everyone having to speak with the same accent? In the West we are allowed to be individuals. We don’t all have to speak and think in the same way.

And what’s all this about the Canadian government controlling standards of education?
Do you think that the British government doesn’t?
We just don’t feel the need to brainwash our children into speaking the same way like you do in Japan.

# My fourth point is that a Canadian told me that because the U.K. keeps the class system, it is not easy for people in the lower classes to move to the upper classes. Even today, British people are still immigrating to Canada where everyone are equal. Do you know this?

1) The word is emigrating not immigrating.

2) Stop asking me “Do you know this” it sounds patronizing; we’re talking about my country here, so don’t you think that I might just, possibly, perhaps, know slightly more about it than you do? Maybe?

3) We are all equal in Britain. Certainly far more so than in Japan where you can’t even become a citizen unless you have Japanese ancestry.

4) There has been a great deal of legislation passed over the past 20 years to break down the class system. Many of our leading politicians (and indeed our current Prime minister) come from lower class backgrounds.

5) Yet again you’re basing you’re judgments upon things other people have told you rather than your own experience.

6) British people emigrate everywhere. The majority of British emigrants went to Spain last year; it doesn’t mean a thing.

# Fifth, I know that India has Caste class system but I think that it is not fair to compare British society with India’s because India’s geographical and economical conditions are different from the U.K.’s and India has many social problems.

* Your previous posts seemed to indicate that you thought class systems were a uniquely British phenomenon, I was trying to show you that they occur throughout the world in many different cultures. Very little of the class distinctions remain in Britain. I say this as a member of the lower class who has funny accent; I’ve been to university, I have a good job and I have never felt discriminated against because of my accent or my background.

# Don’t you think that you should compare British society with other European societies such as France and Germany, which have much more egalitarian societies than the U.K.?

* France is more egalitarian than Britain?! If that’s the case then why were all the French Muslims rioting and burning cars in Paris last year? Why did the French ban them from wearing head scarves in schools?

And Germany is well known for anti-semitic and neo-nazi movements in the East. Half the country was a communist state less than 25 years ago.

Obviously these are extreme examples, but Britain is no less egalitarian than any other European country. Your belief that British people live under some sort of repressive tyranny is just more of your uniformed prejudice.

What exactly is your problem with my country?

Hi Dudesworthy,

Read the Guardian while I am writing you. You said, “Very little of the class distinctions remain in Britain.” The Guardian said as follows.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/oct/20/britishidentity.socialexclusion

Riven by class and no social mobility – Britain in 2007

· No change in 10 years of Labour rule
· 89% say they are judged by class
· Poll shows deep North-South gap

* Julian Glover
* The Guardian, Saturday 20 October 2007
* Article history

Ten years of Labour rule have failed to create a classless society, according to a Guardian/ICM poll published today. It shows that Britain remains a nation dominated by class division, with a huge majority certain that their social standing determines the way they are judged.

Of those questioned, 89% said they think people are still judged by their class – with almost half saying that it still counts for “a lot”. Only 8% think that class does not matter at all in shaping the way people are seen.

The poorest people in society are most aware of its impact, with 55% of them saying class, not ability, greatly affects the way they are seen.

Gordon Brown claimed at this year’s Labour conference that “a class-free society is not a slogan but in Britain can become a reality”. But even the supposedly meritocratic Thatcher generation of adults born in the 1980s appear to doubt that: 90% of 18-24 year-olds say people are judged by their class.

The poll also shows that after 10 years of Labour government, social change in Britain is almost static. Despite the collapse of industrial employment, the working class is an unchanging majority. In 1998, when ICM last asked, 55% of people considered themselves working class. Now the figure stands at 53%.

Of people born to working class parents, 77% say they are working class too. Only one fifth say they have become middle class.

Despite huge economic change and the government’s efforts to build what it calls an opportunity society, people who think of themselves as middle class are still in a minority. In 1998, 41% of people thought of themselves as middle class, exactly the same proportion as today. The upper class is almost extinct, with only 2% of those who answered claiming to be part of it.

The poll paints a picture of a nation divided by social attitudes and life-chances, with 47% of those living in south-east England considering themselves middle class, against 39% in the north and 35% in Wales and the west.

Northern England remains a working-class heartland, with 57% of people describing themselves as part of it.

Scots – 47% of whom think they are middle class – are just as class-bound as English citizens. Almost half of Scots say that class plays an important part in the way people are judged by others.

Social change is taking place slowly. The middle class has grown: although 41% of people think they are part of it, only 32% say their parents were. In 1998, 69% of people thought their parents were working class. Now only 63% say so, and of those only 53% say they are working class themselves. That shift mirrors the attitude of the former deputy prime minister John Prescott, who admitted “I’m pretty middle class” despite his working class origins.

But many class attitudes have survived economic change. That suggests people are still judged by where they come from rather than how much they earn.

· ICM Research interviewed a random sample of 1,011 on October 17-18. Interviews were conducted across the country and the results have been weighted to the profile of all adults. ICM is a member of the British Polling Council and abides by its rules.

Hi Dudesworthy,

#I say this as a member of the lower class who has funny accent; I’ve been to university, I have a good job and I have never felt discriminated against because of my accent or my background.

*Depending on personal experience can be misleading as it is often a very subjective interpretation. By the way, you wrote that you have been to university and have a good job despite of your background, but that certainly doesn’t reflect in your writing, as you have resorted to insults such as calling my writing “ignorant”, “rubbish”, and stating that I was “embarrassing myself.” Perhaps this is a true reflection of the British class system…

# Don’t try and wriggle out of this; if you want to talk about England, then type England, if you want to talk about the UK, then type the UK. You cannot use these names interchangeably under any circumstances, ever.
#We all live in harmony together in the UK, actually. The last battle in Britain was in 1745.

*Differences among the England, Scotland and Wales are a local issue to many people outside the U.K. I think that the fact that you are so concerned about differences of England and the U.K. shows that the U.K. is mentally fractured into England, Scotland and Wales. In General Americans and French say “I am an American.” or “I am a French.” no matter which part of the country they are from.

#There are clear differences in accent between Canadians in the Atlantic Provinces, Quebec, Central and Pacific.

*I have talked to Canadians from all those areas and their English is not as different as people from London – One speaks very clearly like BBC and another speaks an English of which I can understand almost nothing. Actually I am not talking about “dialect” but different accents in such a small area as London or Tokyo. I understand that “dialect” is a part of a regional culture as I live in Tokyo but I am originally from Osaka where people speak Japanese with a very different accent from Tokyo. However in the same city in Japan, people speak with the same accent because most of children go to a public elementary school.

#you stated that Britain is a “land of Anglo-Saxon people” this is rubbish. We have significant minorities from outside of Britain

*British Whites in England represent the majority of the population while the percentage of ethnic minorities is quite small. And Anglo-Saxons came to Britain long ago. So, I think that it is safe to say, “Britain is a land of Anglo-Saxons.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_Kingdom
http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/anglosaxons/invasion/invind3.shtml

#Japan, where rigid government control has apparently stamped out all regional accents.

*Japan has many dialects. How much do you know outside the U.K.? My major is neither western culture nor language but I know that education has been free in Germany, and that Scandinavian countries have excellent welfare systems and that the French have social democracy, where some markets are controlled by the government. Japan has referred to many things in the west to develop our society, such as the welfare system, political system, and education. As a result many Japanese are well versed about the west.

#France is more egalitarian than Britain?!
#And Germany is well known for anti-semitic and neo-nazi movements in the East.

*I am talking about how the society treats their own people such as welfare system, free education, republic, etc. I am not talking about racism in France and Germany. I am referring to the British class system in this blog post.

I do not understand why the U.K., being as developed as France and Germany, discriminates against their own people through its class system. I do not like that because I believe in freedom and equality. These ideas are not from traditional Japanese culture but from the American influence after WWII in Japan. I suppose that the American ideas of “freedom and equality” derive from France during the time of American Independence and the French Revolution.

You seem to be speaking as if the UK is behind Japan in a society sense… The class system, no longer exsists, just like in Japan.

Hi Dan,

The Guardian’s article “Riven by class and no social mobility – Britain in 2007” above is wrong?

The poll in The Guardian’s article is one of perceptions and confirms that British people are likely to self-identify according to class.

I’ve lived in Japan for a little under eight years now and there are obviously differences between Japan and Britain (as well as innumerably similarities). Japan has a smaller gap between rich and poor than the U.K. (although the U.K. has a smaller gap than the United States), and Japanese people are far less conscious of class. In fact, in my experience many Japanese don’t like the concept even being discussed in relation to Japanese society. If I was pushed to make a generalisation, I’d say that Japanese people are often very proud of the cultural traits that unite them as a people, with Japan’s “homogeneity” often considered a point of pride. British people are often very proud of the traits that separate them from others, with class often a strong point of identification. In practice, I think Japan is far less homogeneous than its image and Britain is probably far less culturally stratified than its people think. To summarise, the difference is far more about how people see themselves, which is an important factor in a society, but you’d need to go into more easily measurable factors, particularly economics, if you want to make any kind of useful comparison between class mobility in any two given countries.

>Dudesworthy
“…like Japan, where rigid government control has apparently stamped out all regional accents.”

There are radical differences in accent between different parts of Japan. Someone with a strong Aomori dialect would be almost unintelligible to someone from Kagoshima. Okinawa retains both its own distinct dialect of Japanese as well as its own language and culture from before the Ryukyu Islands were formally annexed in 1879. The Ainu people, mostly living in Hokkaido, similarly retain a cultural identity and language distinct from mainstream Japanese society.

“…you can’t even become a citizen unless you have Japanese ancestry.”

You can become a citizen after living in Japan for a certain number of years (not sure exactly how many). It’s very similar to the U.K.’s policy on naturalisation.

Hi dotdash,

A Canadian, who is of English origin, told me that British people cannot get away from the lower class no matter how much they try to do so, so they move to Canada from England.

>Japanese people are far less conscious of class

Because it is discrimination in contemporary Japanese culture. I remember that a university student was shocked by an English word “lower class” during English class and was absent from classes. The professor claimed that “lower class” is commonly used in English but after all he was given a suspension from office as punishment. This event showed up in a major Japanese paper in 2000 or 2001. Japan has very small numbers of privileged people such as the emperor family and their relatives, descendants of Shogun’s family and descendants of the feudal lard family from the Edo period, but in daily life we hear of only the emperor family and a few of their relatives through the media. We have discriminated people called “buraku-min” who are descendants of the lowest class of the social position system from the Edo period. Japanese compulsory education teaches their history to abolish discrimination.

I think that as for class society these facts are more important differences between Britain and Japan rather than differences between British ideas of “separate them from others” and Japanese ideas of “homogeneity.”

“Lower class” is not a standard phrase in English. “Working class” is, and as I’ve said several times (although you have yet to address or acknowledge it), it is a label that people are happy to self-identify under. There are a lot of extremely rich people who came from a working class background, and they will still identify themselves as “working class” because they are proud of their roots.

Your Canadian friend’s comment is simplistic and a huge generalisation, but there’s a seed of truth in it. Britain is a small country with a large population and high living costs. People who are already wealthy have typically been able to secure the best education for their children and thus there is a huge advantage to coming from a rich family. The option of emigrating to Canada or Australia for a new start has been attractive for a lot of people, certainly.

There is a problem with class mobility (as there is to a greater extent in the United States) where growing numbers of people at the very bottom of the socio-economic scale are trapped by debt, bad education and low expectations from their parents and peers. This is not unique to Britain though and it is a problem inherent in modern capitalist societies, including the USA and France.

I don’t think any of your examples point to Britain being any more discriminatory a society than most places. In fact I think you’re barking up the wrong tree entirely by clinging to this idea of class discrimination. Schools in Britain (and I would imagine most countries) are constantly drilling home the message of anti-discrimination, which seems a no-brainer to me. You’re mixing up the idea of traditional privileged classes, such as the Japanese or British aristocracy, with contemporary class issues. Class nowadays is mostly defined by economic factors, which ensure that the rich get access to the best education and contacts. It’s not just the Emperor’s family in Japan who are privileged: it’s also the families of top executives of Sony, Mori Construction, Uniqlo, Matsumoto Kiyoshi, Toyota, Idemitsu, Ito Yokado, etc. These kids get to go to the best private schools, get easy passes into the top universities, and get the best contacts for the top jobs when they finish their education. This isn’t a matter of historically rooted social discrimination, this is a basic function of capitalism, i.e. wealth accrues to the wealthy.

‘A Canadian, who is of English origin, told me that British people cannot get away from the lower class no matter how much they try to do so, so they move to Canada from England.’

I have known a number of people who have emigrated to Canada. One emigrated because he was very much interested in the outdoors lifestyle and adventure pursuits that he could undertake there. One because he had met a lovely Canadian woman who he later went on to marry, and another as she had the offer of a job she couldn’t refuse. None of these people moved from Britain due to class restraints or the inability to socially mobilize.

Please don’t let the outdated fantasy portrayed in a single film or the speculation of one Canadian friend skew your views on British culture. Because, frankly they are outdated and wrong.

Like Dudesworthy, I too am from a working class background, I too have a funny accent, I too went to University and I too now hold a respectable and well paid job. I am also not alone, all of my school friends also underwent the same experience. Class is not as important in the Britain of today. If we were looking back 100 years I could not say the same, but today’s Britain is very different to that of Britain 100 years ago. I am sure that you could say the same thing about the Japan of 100 years ago.

Also on the same thread of thought. An American friend of mine told me not to bother visiting Japan as she found the Japanese people rude and racist. I have always had a fascination with Japanese culture and decided to ignore her warnings. I was glad that I did, as I have never met more friendly or helpful people as I did during my trip. I suppose that is why I am even more disappointed having come across this page on the internet. As it just seems to reinforce her views, with it’s sweeping generalizations on Western society. My best suggestion to you would be, not to listen to speculation and idle gossip but to go out and experience the culture for yourself. I was glad that I did so and I am eagerly awaiting my next trip to Japan.

As for the report from the ‘The Guardian’, it is a matter of fact that the media often sensationalizes issues in order to provoke the sort of outraged response you have displayed, it doesn’t necessarily mean they are right.

Much legislation has been passed in recent years to abolish discrimination of any form. There will always be racists, there will always be people who discriminate against others due to their religion, sexuality or ethnic background in any culture or society. But the British government has done a sterling job in ensuring that if this is the case, the person discriminating will be punished.

As with regards to the UK being:

‘an island country, which did not have a lot of chances to have many foreigners in the past’

I would inform you that this is also simply not the case. Numerous invasions and an influx of ‘foreign’ peoples have helped to enrich the culture of Britain today. I myself am a descendant of French Huguenots who arrived in Britain in the 17th Century. Foreign influence has led to a much more varied and enriched society. Which, most Britons love.

You cannot take one example from history:

‘It was in 1278 under King Edward in England that all Jews were arrested.’

and claim that as an example for the way in which people are treated today. I am sure that Japanese Christians are living in peace today even though this was not always the case in the past. We also have large Jewish communities in Britain today who live in harmony with everyone else.

With regards to National Identity. You really should research this more. It has nothing to do with social status, it’s just another box us Britons like to put ourselves in. Britain is a conglomeration of a number of Kingdoms and Principalities that came together to benefit the whole. I consider myself Welsh, but above all I’m British. I can label myself in both ways if I want or I can identify with Wales or the UK. But identifying myself as Welsh does not make me any less British and it certainly does not mean that I think any less of those Britons who live in England, Ireland or Scotland.

Please do not be offended by my response. Everyone has their peculiar dislikes, it is true that discrimination will never be truly abolished. But I felt that I needed a forum in which to pen a response to your thoughts on the UK as I felt they were unfair.

Class discrimination is more or less a thing of the past in the UK as the kinds of people who discriminate have immigration to make a fuss about. Though, you might get the odd jokes about the north and south of UK. I do agree that the English tend to look down on the U.S but that most likely do to the media always referring to us as practically American and don’t forget that there is around 60 million people in the UK and a large part of them are from other countries with different view on the USA. But if I was to ask a person in the street now ‘what they thought of American’ most would say “Ignorant, self-centered, evangelical and a tad exocentric”. plus from a personal point of view its a bit annoying seing the english language being messed about by them and Japan following suit (ie: Color instead of Colour etc…) but thats about it really for me as i think every country has its good and bad people.

Speaking as a UK born Jamaican; it’s commonm knowledge white Australians are racist.

I think people replying to this blog are confusing the issue somewhat.

In reality there is no longer a “lower class” in the UK in the way it is shown in “My Fair Lady”.

Virtually everyone here is middle class, most people live comfortable lives, with enough money for food, heating, and non essentials, everyone gets a proper education, and they also get time off from work as standard and often go on holidays overseas.

The fundamental problem here with your link to the Guardian is that in Britain it is considered cool to be working class (lower class) whilst in Japan it sounds as though its more of a derogatory term.

Here the Working Class is associated with a strong willed, hard working, no nonsence outlook on life, the backbone people of the country, the ones who keep it going, the “salt of the earth”

I’ve looked into the standard of life in Japan before, all these British people who claim to be working class in the UK make more money, and work FAR less hours than the average Japanese person.

The Upper Class certainly still exists, but makes up a very small percentage of the UK population, these people have pretty much no effect on people’s way of life anymore, they’re just left to enjoy their money and play around with their horses, and honestly nobody really takes any notice of them anymore at all.

On the other notes –

You are simply incorrect about the ethnic state of the UK, the UK is easily one of the most diverse countries in the whole of Europe, if not the most diverse.

The reasons for this are -

The UK is much easier than the other European countries to move to and get a job, which means that huge amounts of immigrants travel here to find work.

The UK has a long history of being invaded by other countries, the Romans, the French, the Germans, and the Scandinavian countries all invaded and settled with the native people in the early history of the country.

The UK also had a very big empire at one stage which reached accross the world, most countries which were previously in the Empire are now part of the Commonwealth, and are afforded more rights to live here, due to these rights, as well as shared heritage we have an extremely high number of Indians, Pakistanis, Zimbabweans, and Jamaicans living here.

The previous section also helps to answer one of your other questions.

One of the reasons why there is so many different accents in the UK is because its such an ethnically divere place, for instance, there’s a fairly common accent in London used by young people which is literally a cross between the London accent, and a Jamaican accent, there were so many people of Jamaican descent in those areas that new accents developed.

So basically in the UK we have differences in accent depending on where we live (just like Japan) but we also have the “proper accent” which is only really used by upper class people and rarely heard, and accents based on the ethnic diversity of the country.

it’s not at all true that britain had no influence from other countries. it is indeed an island nation but is has been conquered and invaded by numerous europen powers right throughout it’s history. furthermore it had an empire spanning a quarter of the globe. which at one time as i’m sure you know included america.

they actually looked down on everyone! and we still do, in an ironic way. as of course we are now a very tolerant and multi-cutural society now.

it’s not just australians who look down on americans. it’s most of the people of the rest of the developed world. japan being an obvious exception. it is not fair to compare a dislike for americans, to racism. it is not the same thing at all.

many people dislike america for it’s harmful foreign policy and it’s vulgar and shallow ‘culture’ which is brainwashing masses of automotons. Having said that, their music and literature really is first rate. they did put a man on the moon, and i am partial to the odd hamburger.

I’ve been to Asia a fair bit and know several Asians, admittedly mostly Chinese and Koreans but I’ve been to Japan and I have to say that race and class matter way more Asians, particularly Chinese and Koreans, than to westerners. Class means something slightly different there, it just means money whereas in England it means education, job and upbringing. Nonetheless, money and class matter way more to them and that leads on to arranged marriages and someone’s richness being considered a positive personality trait on a par with good looks, the latter also much more important to Asians, and superior to intelligence or wit. I don’t want to tar Japan with the same brush but I would imagine it’s a pan-sinic culture thing. I would say that guardian article is a much better example of evidence that British are hypersensitive to class and social mobility, making it similar to something like racism. I’ve noticed this sensitivity when I’ve been with Chinese people. I love the way in China you can shout at and insult the staff and complain about poor service, in England you can’t and I’ve seen the astonished looks of waitresses at their treatment by their Chinese patrons in London. In other words there is poor social mobility in East Asia and England, but in England it’s considered a problem whereas it isn’t in Asia.

To go back to the 13th century expulsion of Jews is not accurate on the one hand because it happened 800 years ago and also it was happening all over Europe at the time so is not a good marker of xenophobia, also Britain is not that far from Europe. In fact, Britain is more ethnically diverse than most other countries and has the most mixed race relationships in the world.

In my experience and in the media Asians are the most racist people around. Race is important to Asians and I am very lucky to be white in China. It doesn’t matter what colour your skin is in Europe but in Asia if you’re black then they can openly not employ you for being black, there is the pervasive AIDS stereotype, they think you smell, plus you get looked down upon for being from a poor country whereas in China you get looked up to just for being white. But the most virulent racism is reserved for their neighbours; Japanese hate Chinese, Chinese hate Japanese and Koreans hate everyone. It’s not like playful rivalry between European countries, in China there are anti-Japanese marches and lynch mobs on the Nanjing Massacre anniversary and in Korean elementary schools they have exhibitions on why Japan is evil. This is a pan-Asian thing too and, I think, based on the culture and development of a racial nation state. Despite the political differences between the systems, Japan, S.Korea, N.Korea and China all have political systems based on race, particularly Korea and maybe not China, perhaps not race but a strong nationalist ideology in which jingoism, or patriotism, is important. All believe they are inherently superior to their neighbours and all are way less cosmopolitan than the countries of N. and S.America, Australia, Europe or S.Africa. Also, after the Second World War Germany and Japan were forced to become liberal democracies and Germany has turned into a very progressive, liberal country that embodies European left wing values. Japan, despite the occupation, is a relatively authoritarian democracy where the same political party remain in power for a long time, you still have execution and you still have strong ideas of Japaneseness that have been forced out of Germany. For these reasons, on both racism and class barriers, I think Blighty and Oz are more progressive.

Firstly most languages originate from a GERMAN dialect(cool huh), the different accents in the UK i imagine would be from the strong clan tyes such as the scotts and the welch(correct spelling?) oh and i love watching documentaries on history and wars (i’m part German, Irish, Scottish, Spanish and Egyption…. Crazy but true, i think traveling might be in my genetics don’t you lol) anyway you can’t base your views on a country based on a movie! just like how i can’t base my view of Japan on anime and manga(Oh and just so you know my whole family on either sides are very sporty…. I was a kind of social mix of every group due to the fact that i play sports, video games(I haven’t played a Lan or online on Xbox live with too many people that could match my New-type abilities(gundam)lol, i love watching anime and manga (trying to convert as many people as i can) oh and i got along really well with the Aboriginal kids my age too because i treated them the same as i treat everyone else(plus i was one of the few that played football with them(Not soccer but i like that too). what i’m trying to say while taking off on a bloody tangent mate is that your view are slightly wrong… yes i do think that the leaders of USA and some Americans are arrogant (The French are some of the most arrogant pricks on that side of the world) but the Japanese Hate China(you guys did some very sick things to the chinese during WW2… they don’t teach that part of your history in Japan and that is something that I as an Austrailian is a little angry about…. we own up to what OUR ANCESTORS DID!)…. not having a go at you though. everyone is proud of their own Country and that means being a little arrogant too. I’m going to Japan next year for four months to experiance Japan starting around April, any sugestions on where i should go? lol
P.S.
India used a cast system up until recently(if your were born into a poor farming family then thats all you could be). catch ya later mate :)

“The U.K. is an island country, which did not have a lot of chances to have many foreigners in the past!
Derp

Celts
Romans
Britons
Saxons
Normans
Vikings
Germans
Spaniards

Nope, none of them ever settled/had lots of wars wars with Britain.

Also:
The empire never caused generations of mass-emigration to the U.K, and thus I was never born. What a surprise to me!

Quite a skewed view, but refreshing for a Japanese person to speak so frankly of their (somewhat ill-informed) opinions.
I respect such an opinion and have no great prejudices towards any people; However I do harbour a distaste for the ill-informed. One must realise that obtaining ones views from second source information and 1960s American musicals is rather an ignorant way of collecting an opinion of another culture. Especially from an ex-colony of that culture that still holds popularised stereotypes of “the cockney whelp” or the “stupid toff”. From one who has lived in both America and Japan, and who has very good friends in both countries, realise that you’re in the ‘old west’ and our culture and values are quite disparitive to our American cousins, let alone to Japanese people.
Thank you

All very interesting. I am an English-speaker from the British West Indies (but am neither black nor white – alone), who has lived most of my life in France but now in Miami, where I am fluent in Spanish.

I wish to add my own viewpoint in the parallel situation between Australia and Argentina, an Austral state like Australia that has only a very recent modern history since it was largely neglected until the 19th century. In many ways, Argentina is like Australia, it is a large multicultural society (most Argentines I’ve met are only 3 generations removed from European immigrants and indigenous population is a small minority) bound by a common language, Spanish. However, the Argentine DOES NOT regard Spain as a “mother country” since his origins may be a mix of German, Ukranian, English, Italian etc. A bit like Australians must experience, Argentines are sometimes treated with some deprecation when visiting Spain (“Sudaco” is the slang deprecatory term for South Americans”).

Like Australians, Argentines speak a derivative of the original European language, in this case, Spanish. “Rioplatense” Spanish and Ibearian Spanish are significantly different in pronunciation, grammar and lexicon — but still similar enough to be mutually intelligible between Spaniard and Argentines. The difference gap is similar to that between Standard American and Received Pronunciation (the UK broadcast standard “Queen’s English”).

In some ways, Argentina (40 million) along with Brazil (200 million), may become be the most vibrant economies in the Western Hemisphere. Buenos Aires is the biggest capital of the Southern Hemisphere, with some 12 million souls. (Sao Paulo is bigger at some 24 million but it isn’t a capital). There’s a whole world down there and not everything of import will be in the Northern Hemisphere.

I just wanted to say that your comments about Australians looking down on Americans are quite ridiculous. If we are going to be making generalisations, I would say that Australians see Americans as alies and friends before anything else. You are correct in saying that Australians will often make negative comments regarding American culture and people, however rarely is it ‘looking down on Americans’.
Australian people are quick to criticise and question and are usually the first to criticise their own country and government.
You do not understand the modern Australian mindset and sense of humor. You obviously know nothing about Australian history and the White Australia policy.
This post is completely uninformed. As an Australian who had been living in Japan for the past two years I feel embarrassed reading this.

Hi Ben,

Read my other post “American Green Card Lottery and Australian immigration policy.”

http://japaneseview.wordpress.com/2009/06/08/american-green-card-lottery-and-australian-immigration-policy/

I know infamous White Australian Policy and Australian history. I would say that highlights of Australian history are as follows.

1.Australia used to be a penal colony of the British government.

2.Australian White Policy was over 30 years ago – not so long ago.

3.The Australian government apologized to aboriginal people in 2008 – very recently.

That is a huge generalization about the whole of the Australian continent! What do your base your conclusions on? For the record, I’m an Australian woman who has been happily married for the past 25 years to a Tamil (Sri Lankan) man. We have a daughter. My sister and her husband adopted their daughter from Indonesia and the whole family adore her just as much as they love my daughter abd the other children in our mixed-race families.
Alison

support aboriginies and indians

Some very black and white views here.
Actually some observations are very well stated but to large extent non factual.

My own opinion? Us English are now picking our friends very wisely, never has there been stronger and closer links between Japan and the UK, you will see a lot more of this in the next decade due to common interests and free trade agreements.

I laughed at your warming to the UK regarding the class system! You will find the class system died somewhere around 1940, just when Britain needed to move on.

By the way, there is a massive miss-conception that Japan is, shall I say, lukewarm to foreigners? I can honestly say that after visiting many times nothing can be further from the truth.
Kind hearts, hospitality and respect is what you receive when visiting Japan.

Um if it helps the class system in england is nearly none existant, the only people who would consider them self of a higher class then others are the royal family and one of our many political parties. There are language differences between the south and the north of our country but the reason for that is because in the south it is considered correct to speak the queens english which puts an over emphasis on an r sound in words e.g. bath becomes barth, laugh becomes larf.
To be honest i was very confused when i first became interested in the Japanese culture on the use of honorifics in the language e.g. San, chan, tan, kun etc and almost similar to how you felt about the british thought they were used to seperate people by station.

Oh my. First I think I need to correct your education. Japan did not win the war against China, it had two nukes dropped on it and was forced to abandon any military action, and was subsequently conquered by Americans, who mantain a presence in the Pacific even now. Japan also never colonized Korea, it is a completely seperate entity. In fact, most evidence says the Japanese people were originally Korean immigrants some thousands of years ago. Okay, thats done.

Secondly, your whole perception of other countries seems to be based on the idea that Japan has a perfect class system. It does not. Remember that not so long ago Japan was an tyrannical empire. Today’s government is just an attempt at remedying the mistakes of the past, and laws and regulations will only be revised again and again to adapt to changes and fit around the views of the population. The same is true of America, the UK, Australia, and every country.

As far as discrimination against blacks, I feel that is a generational thing. I am British, so I can’t speak for the other countries, but here it is mostly the older generations that are prejudiced against other races. As time goes on it will be phased out, and hostility forgotten. It is much like Japanese feelings toward China and Korea.

I hope I didn’t offend you, I just wanted to get a point across.

Aiden,

Please study history before making any comment on my blog.

> First I think I need to correct your education. Japan did not win the war against China

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1261918.stm

”1894 – Japan goes to war with China. Japan’s better equipped forces win victory in just nine months.”

http://departments.kings.edu/history/20c/china.html

“At first, the Chinese, saw the Westerners and other Asian nations as inferior and ignored their presence. However, when China lost influence of Korea, Vietnam, and Taiwan during the Sino-Japanese War of 1885-95, China finally realized that foreigners were carving up their lands. The United States, Great Britain, Japan, Russia, and many other nations fought to gain spheres of influence over the China, exploiting it as a colony.”

> Japan also never colonized Korea, it is a completely seperate entity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korea_under_Japanese_rule
http://books.google.com/books/about/Japan_s_colonization_of_Korea.html?id=wisqvipZ2bcC

As an Australian who grew up in Darwin and Sydney from the 1950s, I would agree with your assessment that “some” Australians look down on Americans. I agree that quite a few do as Australia has long been unapologetically Euro-centric. My history class as a 14year old consisted of English history: the war of the Roses, the Tudors, etc. It was like civilization began in England. In 3 years of history we never left the “old country” except when the French or whoever invaded England. (We did not even cover Aussie history once in 3 years!) The teacher was always upset that I seemed uninterested in his classes. The amazing thing to me was that nobody else thought the same. The class was full of the school’s elite students – now they are all doctors, dentists, lawyers – and they lapped it all up. My family in the 1970s owned a newsagency- know that term? It’s a store that sells newspapers & magazines. The magazines then were full of features of the royal family.Aussie women loved these articles. Another amazing example I can recall is when the movie Amadeus came out in the mid-1980s. My colleague complained that the actor playing Mozart spoke with an “American accent”. The others listening nodded in agreement while I silently shook my head. Having a British actor and accent would make no difference as Mozart never spoke English anyway!

Forgive the other Aussies who disagreed with you – like those in my examples above, they are not even aware of their in-built bias.

But for them to deny racism in Australia after the Sydney race riots (more like a civil war) at the beaches just several years back is just stupid. More personally, I am a professor at a Japanese university and I am ashamed to have to try to help when my students complain of having eggs or bottles thrown at them when studying abroad in Cairns, Surfers Paradise & Hobart. It is not black Aussies who are throwing these things -yes, you guessed it, the white Aussies. Aussies are proud to boast how their life expectancies are 2nd only to Japan’s (79 for men & 84 for women). What they don’t talk about is how aborigines living in the very same country only live to 59 (men) and 65 (women). What do all those Aussies arguing about the benefits of “multiculturalism” have to say now?

The White Australia Policy is no longer official, but sadly, it has not gone away.

I stumbled on this blog, but feel compelled to comment. Over the years I have often been perplexed by the views of the many Japanese I have encountered. In particular, the various images they all appear to have of various nationalities and cultures which they blindly hold on to: the blonde, blue-eyed Germans; the beauty, civilisation and romance of Paris to name just two casual examples, with Japanese Paris Syndrome is a curious manifestation of the latter. What I find more astounding it that well-educated Japanese are prepared to investigate these varied cultures for themselves, yet they happily draw their conclusions from the most superficial sources of information.
I realise that in criticising these ubiquitous Japanese stereotypes I am reinforcing my own stereotypical view of the Japanese themselves, but I find japaneseview to fall squarely into this category of educated Japanese. As several people have pointed out, drawing conclusions from a film more than five decades old, which is in turn based on a comedy book whose humour is derived from a caricature of Victorian English society is incredulous. Perhaps japaneseview can be forgiven for regarding the Guardian article is a more reliable source, but please remember that this is a newspaper article – it is intended to be contentious and controversial. The subject of class in Britain is extremely complicated – ask 100 different English people and you will get 100 different opinions, and a single newspaper feature is not going to resolve that.
As for racist Australians I am sure they are in the minority, and criticising them over the U.S.A., which was enacting new racist laws well into the second half of the 20th century seems biased to say the least.
japaneseview, I find it refreshing that you appear to have a genuine interest in trying to break free of any preconceived ideas you have about different cultures and nationalities, but, in your own words “Please study history before making any comment on my blog”. You are in an unfortunate position of starting from the back of the crowd here, given that you were taught history by the Japanese education system.
P.S. England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are all different countries – they are constituent countries of the U.K. Generally speaking we all get along just fine with just a handful of understandable exceptions.

Hi Dan,

>in your own words “Please study history before making any comment on my blog”. You are in an unfortunate position of starting from the back of the crowd here, given that you were taught history by the Japanese education system.

I know that world history varies according to country but I found that important historical facts are commonly accepted in many countries.

I check English websites to make sure that historical facts I will talk about are common to English speaking world and Japan before I make a comment here.

>P.S. England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are all different countries – they are constituent countries of the U.K.

So, Scottish and Welsh have passports of Scotland or Wales?

>I know that world history varies according to country but I found that important historical facts are commonly accepted in many countries.

>I check English websites to make sure that historical facts I will talk about are common to English speaking world and Japan before I make a comment here.

Well I have to say that is more effort than a lot of people might make when writing a blog. The problem lies with the fact that the ‘English speaking world’ alone is vast and diverse, and views of world history are accordingly diverse. The same can be said even within the U.K. itself (for example). Even supposedly reliable sources such as the BBC should be read with healthy caution. Combine that with the fact that you are discussing topics that are both contentious and complex and it is inevitable that you are unlikely to ever reach true, unbiased facts. It is at least worth trying to take an ‘average’ across a number of conflicting views, and remembering that greater conflicts of opinion may well imply greater contention, which in turn should suggest you thoroughly research a subject before making your own assertions.

>>P.S. England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are all different countries – they are constituent countries of the U.K.

>So, Scottish and Welsh have passports of Scotland or Wales?
No, no matter how much some may like that ;-)
But the issue of a passport has no link to the sovereignty of a state. It is only relatively recently that countries such as the Cayman Islands, Bermuda etc. acquired their own truly independent passport, and they certainly could never be regarded as ‘the UK’. Conversely, as a EU citizen technically I can travel anywhere within the EU without a passport, not to mention more complicated cases like travel to Gibraltar. Again, immigration borders do not necessarily correlate with state borders…

Hi,
I’m from England, Liverpool and I was very surprised when I read this as most of your views on Britain aren’t true. My father was brought up working class, but now he is very much middle class. I myself am working class . I think that the isn’t that much of a class dived any more .My impression of Japan was that classes where divided but obviously I was wrong as you seem to be so annoyed of the UK. As for the accent thing I attend an all girls quite posh school and to be honest some of the very posh girls have a stronger accent then me. I think accents are more about where your from rather then class. And my fair lady is a old film, so yeah the probably was more of an accent divide but not anymore…

I have always been fascinated by Japanese culture and one thing I have discovered through talking to Japanese people that when White or black people go to Japan they are stared at. I found this very odd because In the U.K it is very normal to see people of all diffrent races. So if anything I think this shows that England is more of an accepting socity then Japan.

Hi!
I’m half Italian and half American and I lived in both countries. One of your points, the one about the perception of a class system, is very interesting. Europe as a whole still has some lingering ties to it’s feudal-aristocrat system, it also (sadly) proved to be a good breeding ground to authoritarianism (Fascism in Italy, Nazism in Germany). Maybe cause Europeans are simply to “used to” unquestioned authority.
The US on the other hand was colonized by people fleeing from persecution, religious (in the case of the Pilgrims) or class based. Americans are less tied to (and probably innately despise) the unquestioned authority. And it probably is one of the reasons why Americans are viewed as being ignorant towards others traditions…

Hi Japaneseview, I’m English.

The article in the Guardian was written by Julian Glover, speechwriter for (now Conservative Prime Minister), David Cameron. It’s his job to attack the Labour regime, a regime which stands for social progress, and he doesn’t even do that very well! The article is all about people’s perceptions of their own class and has very little, if any, factual content regarding social mobility. Mr. Glover throws around worthless statistics: 53%; 55%; 47%… hardly anything shocking there! Social mobility is what you’re struggling to understand when reading about British (or possibly only English, which is fine), culture, and watching films set in Edwardian England. The same news article could have been written by a socialist, using the very same statistics, and put in a positive light, e.g: “Those who percieve themselves as working class have dropped by two percent in only ten years! That rate of change over a century ((since the time of the events in the fictitious My Fair Lady to now)), equates to one fifth of the entire popoulous!”
I consider myself more conservative than socialist, and still I can see right through such sensationalist news stories.

As many British (not Canadian, American, or otherwise), people have stated here, in Britain, class is not a barrier anymore, it’s a matter of pride, most prominently for high-achieving people from the working class. One can be born into a poor family and still have access to free medical care, libraries, full schooling and university – every opportunity needed to reach a high-paying job, high standard of living, higher ‘class’ for their children.

From what I’ve read here and elsewhere, it seems that both Britain and Japan are mostly egalitarian societies, we just approach it from different angles. In Japan, APPARENTLY, class is not an issue beause it’s simply not discussed. To do so is considered discrimination. If that’s true then that’s fine, that’s your custom. In Britain, we achieve egalitarianism actually by discussing class, not keeping it a secret but dealing with it and encouraging equal opportunities.

I appreciate your interest in British culture above all else discussed here and I don’t think it’s wrong to PARTIALLY inform your views of a culture with critical works of art produced by that culture. My Fair Lady is a good example with which to inform your HISTORY of Britain.
And please don’t be disconcerted by Dudesworthy’s reactionary comments, it’s also not wrong for you to ask questions about unfamiliar cultures! We are very friendly and welcoming people over here!

I realise this thread was originally posted four years ago, but I came here as a result of searching for ‘japanese view england’, and read all the way to the bottom, so I’m sure many Asians, British, Aussies and others will!

All the best

Hi WhatTheDickens,

>it seems that both Britain and Japan are mostly egalitarian societies

I heard that in Britain, university grads do not become bus drivers because a bus driver is what less educated people do. In Japan, university grads can be bus drivers, carpenters or whatever they want to be.
Japan does not have an egalitarian society because we are a communal people where relationships are hieratical. For example, Japanese people have a respect for those in high positions of authority.

> In Britain, we achieve egalitarianism actually by discussing class, not keeping it a secret but dealing with it and encouraging equal opportunities
> In Japan, APPARENTLY, class is not an issue because it’s simply not discussed.

In Japan class is not discussed because we don’t consider it an issue. We have Buraku-min, a group of Japanese people who are discriminated against. They are about 2 to 3 percent of the national population. We do not consider them a different class. It’s a much more complicated issue than a class.


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